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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 am 
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SR1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.


Or Vettel was simply managing the gap up front?

Just putting this out there. A different perspective on Baku

"Vettel was driving to a gap, could've pulled out more, Hamilton in a slower car was trying like crazy to close the gap. If you'd put them in the opposite situations that's probably what would've occured too. I don't see him (Hamilton) 'playing it safe' as you say. I see him having transcended the car at Albert Park (where's he's always fantastic), where Ferrari didn't quite unlock the full potential of their car (a combination that made the Merc look faster than it was). But since then Ferrari has been the fastest and Hamilton is just doing what he can withit." Mark Hughes.

Either scenario is a possibility, tbh. But there's always some degree of bias, even with professional reporters. If Hamilton transcended the car in Baku, then who's to say Vettel didn't do the same in Canada? Not saying either did, mind, just that once you go down that speculative route you have to consider it every time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:08 am 
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Zoue wrote:
SR1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.


Or Vettel was simply managing the gap up front?

Just putting this out there. A different perspective on Baku

"Vettel was driving to a gap, could've pulled out more, Hamilton in a slower car was trying like crazy to close the gap. If you'd put them in the opposite situations that's probably what would've occured too. I don't see him (Hamilton) 'playing it safe' as you say. I see him having transcended the car at Albert Park (where's he's always fantastic), where Ferrari didn't quite unlock the full potential of their car (a combination that made the Merc look faster than it was). But since then Ferrari has been the fastest and Hamilton is just doing what he can withit." Mark Hughes.

Either scenario is a possibility, tbh. But there's always some degree of bias, even with professional reporters. If Hamilton transcended the car in Baku, then who's to say Vettel didn't do the same in Canada? Not saying either did, mind, just that once you go down that speculative route you have to consider it every time.


:thumbup:

People always forget to factor in the driver, especially when comparing the midfield, but it's so damn hard to do!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:34 pm 
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I find it difficult to take a journalist who claims that a driver “transcended their car” seriously. Hughes has always came across as a Lewis fan despite his weak attempts to appear objective.

I also don’t buy the claim that Vettel was managing the gap at Baku. When Vettel has the pace to pull over clear of the field, he usually does (as we have seen throughout his career).


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:58 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I find it difficult to take a journalist who claims that a driver “transcended their car” seriously. Hughes has always came across as a Lewis fan despite his weak attempts to appear objective.

I also don’t buy the claim that Vettel was managing the gap at Baku. When Vettel has the pace to pull over clear of the field, he usually does (as we have seen throughout his career).


Apart from we are watching an era of racing which involves saving engines and tyres. There's no need to pull a big gap over your rivals even if you can.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Then why did Hamilton pull a big gap in Spain?

Or maybe Vettel simply didn’t have the pace to pull a gap in Baku.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:30 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Then why did Hamilton pull a big gap in Spain?

Or maybe Vettel simply didn’t have the pace to pull a gap in Baku.


One race doesn't exactly mean it's a regular occurance :? That was the one race we have seen one team be particular dominant, doesn't mean it's the theme of the season.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:50 pm 
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The opening stint in Baku:

On lap 5 the safety car came in.

Vettel was faster than Hamilton in 6 laps out of 16 laps. In one of those laps Hamilton ran off the circuit.
Hamilton was faster than Vettel on 10 out of 16 laps.

Then Hamilton ran off the circuit again and pitted on lap 21.

After Hamilton pitted, Bottas began closing the gap to Vettel by 0.5s per lap.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:58 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.

I think in both races you mentioned (Bahrain or China 2018) the cars were equal, at least on Sunday. Ferrari's qualifying advantage did not translate to a race day advantage.

I also think there's a very real extent to which Ferrari is being made to look quicker this year because Hamilton simply isn't delivering. The two times Mercedes looked dominant - Australia and Spain - it was Hamilton leading the way. If Bottas is the leading Mercedes, I have a hard time believing we're seeing the real pace of the car.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:58 pm 
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in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:17 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:41 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.

ah, yes, remember Spain now. He did indeed miss his marks. Don't remember the 2 mistakes on in lap in China though. What did he do?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:56 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.

This is comical levels of nitpicking. He ran slightly wide at the hairpin in China when his tyres were done (and Bottas would have jumped him regardless, that mistake did not cost him 1.1 seconds). I could easily tear Alonso’s entire 2012 season apart with this kind of nitpicking.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:58 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.

Quote:
I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

If Hamilton didn’t lose the lead in Australia because of the safety car, and didn’t have off weekends in China and Canada where he was clearly slower than Bottas, he could easily be leading the WDC by a comfortable margin too.

Neither have been perfect but Vettel has driven better than Hamilton so far this season.

Oh, and Ferrari have never had a weekend like Mercedes did in Spain, where Hamilton pulled away at a rate of 1 second per lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:19 pm 
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In China Vettel made a mistake in the pit entry, plus Ferrari was 1 second longer in the pitstop. The undercut was the biggest of the season of 2 seconds. Ferrari was faster in China but they miscalculated how big the difference was between the tyres.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:52 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.

This is comical levels of nitpicking. He ran slightly wide at the hairpin in China when his tyres were done (and Bottas would have jumped him regardless, that mistake did not cost him 1.1 seconds). I could easily tear Alonso’s entire 2012 season apart with this kind of nitpicking.


What does the 2012 season (or Alonso) have to do with this?

Those were clear mistakes from Vettel and they lost him a position in each race.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.

Quote:
I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

If Hamilton didn’t lose the lead in Australia because of the safety car, and didn’t have off weekends in China and Canada where he was clearly slower than Bottas, he could easily be leading the WDC by a comfortable margin too.

Neither have been perfect but Vettel has driven better than Hamilton so far this season.

Oh, and Ferrari have never had a weekend like Mercedes did in Spain, where Hamilton pulled away at a rate of 1 second per lap.


So what? You do realise you don't get extra points for winning by a bigger margin! :lol:

Overall Ferrari has been the better car across the 7 races so far this season.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.

ah, yes, remember Spain now. He did indeed miss his marks. Don't remember the 2 mistakes on in lap in China though. What did he do?


Mistake at the hairpin and at the pit entry. Bottas on the other hand nailed his in lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.


Last edited by Johnson on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:22 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.

Quote:
I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

If Hamilton didn’t lose the lead in Australia because of the safety car, and didn’t have off weekends in China and Canada where he was clearly slower than Bottas, he could easily be leading the WDC by a comfortable margin too.

Neither have been perfect but Vettel has driven better than Hamilton so far this season.

Oh, and Ferrari have never had a weekend like Mercedes did in Spain, where Hamilton pulled away at a rate of 1 second per lap.


So what? You do realise you don't get extra points for winning by a bigger margin! :lol:

Overall Ferrari has been the better car across the 7 races so far this season.

Having a bigger advantage makes winning easier. It’s certainly easier to win the race without having to worry about strategy if you are 1 second/lap quicker than if you are 0.1 second/lap quicker.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:26 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

I just checked the lap times. This is correct. Vettel was marginally faster than Bottas when both were pushing.

Still, only marginally. Hamilton was not on form and he usually is quicker than Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

I just checked the lap times. This is correct. Vettel was marginally faster than Bottas when both were pushing.

Still, only marginally. Hamilton was not on form and he usually is quicker than Bottas.


Of course Vettel will be only marginally quicker if he is in the dirty air, I very much doubt the Ferrari will have a 2 second advantage to be able to overtake.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:36 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

I just checked the lap times. This is correct. Vettel was marginally faster than Bottas when both were pushing.

Still, only marginally. Hamilton was not on form and he usually is quicker than Bottas.


I don't think you can compare the pace of a car in clean air to one directly 1.1-1.6 seconds behind another car. It appeared Vettel had more speed the entire time he was stuck behind Bottas, he dropped more than 1.4 second back once in about 15 laps and that was the first SC restart lap.

I don't know if the Mercedes had more in it, possibly, but Vettel was definitely quicker to Bottas IMO but that of course doesn't mean Ferrari > Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:25 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
There's a difference between Spa 2017 and Canada 2018 aswell. Mercedes did have a quali advantage last year, there's no doubt about that. I called the Ferrari the better race car, it looked quicker and could stay close to the Mercedes all race. If I remember rightly Kingvoid and Zoue's opinion was that Mercedes was better in the race due to the quali advantage, if I am wrong I am sorry. A lot of the debates last season was regarding the best quali car and race car, this year it seems to be more about the weekend.

This year quali was close but in the race Ferrari had the advantage, more fuel efficient, better pace, new engine etc.

.

That's exactly what was said but this year when Ferrari qualify on pole, which has been often, then other factors need to come into play, it's the same thing of wanting to down play the performance of a car to big up the performance of a driver.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:36 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.

Pot, kettle, black methinks.

In Baku Vettel was cruising whilst Hamilton was flat out, hence the mistake.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:38 am 
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Zoue wrote:
SR1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.


Or Vettel was simply managing the gap up front?

Just putting this out there. A different perspective on Baku

"Vettel was driving to a gap, could've pulled out more, Hamilton in a slower car was trying like crazy to close the gap. If you'd put them in the opposite situations that's probably what would've occured too. I don't see him (Hamilton) 'playing it safe' as you say. I see him having transcended the car at Albert Park (where's he's always fantastic), where Ferrari didn't quite unlock the full potential of their car (a combination that made the Merc look faster than it was). But since then Ferrari has been the fastest and Hamilton is just doing what he can withit." Mark Hughes.

Either scenario is a possibility, tbh. But there's always some degree of bias, even with professional reporters. If Hamilton transcended the car in Baku, then who's to say Vettel didn't do the same in Canada? Not saying either did, mind, just that once you go down that speculative route you have to consider it every time.

Yes of course Mark Hughes is just being biased but feel free to quote him whenever it suits.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:34 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.

Quote:
I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

If Hamilton didn’t lose the lead in Australia because of the safety car, and didn’t have off weekends in China and Canada where he was clearly slower than Bottas, he could easily be leading the WDC by a comfortable margin too.

Neither have been perfect but Vettel has driven better than Hamilton so far this season.

Oh, and Ferrari have never had a weekend like Mercedes did in Spain, where Hamilton pulled away at a rate of 1 second per lap.



That was an off weekend for Ferrari as they struggled to understand the thinner gauge tires. Similar to what has happened to Merc the last few years at Singapore. You can't really count that weekend as proof that Merc is the better car imo. Most likely it was a one off. So far this year every other weekend has not looked remotely similar to what happened in Spain.

I'm very curious how it is going to unfold this weekend because the qualifying tire will be the ultra soft, which Mercedes doesn't seem to like, but however it is a thinner gauge ultra soft, which have not been raced yet this year.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:01 am 
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The tyres are the same as Barcelona ( thin thread) and the tyre pressures are very high this weekend (22.5 and 20.5). Mercedes are going to walk Paul Ricard like they walked Barcelona.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
SR1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Let’s be honest here, if races like Bahrain or China 2018 had happened in 2017 but the situations were reversed (Mercedes as Ferrari and Ferrari as Mercedes), there is no doubt that the usual suspects would argue the cars were equal, if not Ferrari supremacy. There were people arguing that Ferrari was the car to have in Belgium 2017, a very similar situation.

In Baku, once Mercedes got the tyres heated up, they were easily as fast as Ferrari. Hamilton was consistently eating into Vettel’s lead before he locked up.


Or Vettel was simply managing the gap up front?

Just putting this out there. A different perspective on Baku

"Vettel was driving to a gap, could've pulled out more, Hamilton in a slower car was trying like crazy to close the gap. If you'd put them in the opposite situations that's probably what would've occured too. I don't see him (Hamilton) 'playing it safe' as you say. I see him having transcended the car at Albert Park (where's he's always fantastic), where Ferrari didn't quite unlock the full potential of their car (a combination that made the Merc look faster than it was). But since then Ferrari has been the fastest and Hamilton is just doing what he can withit." Mark Hughes.

Either scenario is a possibility, tbh. But there's always some degree of bias, even with professional reporters. If Hamilton transcended the car in Baku, then who's to say Vettel didn't do the same in Canada? Not saying either did, mind, just that once you go down that speculative route you have to consider it every time.

Yes of course Mark Hughes is just being biased but feel free to quote him whenever it suits.

I'm sure you hunt for controversy surrounding Lewis wherever you can.

Transcending the car is a wholly subjective viewpoint, which is the point I'm making. Once you start going down that road then you have to consider it for every race. And every driver


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:56 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
in China Ferrari were definitely faster on both Sunday and Saturday.

I called it much earlier in the season - Ferrari clearly have the best car and Vettel should win the title with a few races to spare. The only reason the championship looks close at the moment is because of some safety car craziness and Vettel's mistakes (Baku, China and Spain) which have cost him alot of points.

what mistake did Vettel make in Spain? Or China?


Spain - missed his marks at the pitstop.

China - 2 mistakes on in lap and slower pit entry than Bottas.

This is comical levels of nitpicking. He ran slightly wide at the hairpin in China when his tyres were done (and Bottas would have jumped him regardless, that mistake did not cost him 1.1 seconds). I could easily tear Alonso’s entire 2012 season apart with this kind of nitpicking.


What does the 2012 season (or Alonso) have to do with this?

Those were clear mistakes from Vettel and they lost him a position in each race.

I think you may arguably have a point for Spain. But I think China is a bit of a stretch. I don't think it's reasonable to argue that would have cost him position


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:01 am 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:11 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


In China if people just look at the end result they would think Redbull was the quickest car without actually looking at the race and finer details involved. You are willing to ignore other details which effected the race, Vettel lost over a second through his and his own team mistakes, the difference in tyres was 2 seconds or more. That basically covers the gap between the two cars before the pitstops. That is hell of alot of time, Vettel himself said they expected to come out in front but they miscalculated the tyres, mistakes happen but that doesn't suddenly make the cars equal. Also Ferrari had a buffer to the Mercedes, once roles reversed the Mercedes couldn't get away from Ferrari.
In Spa last year the gap never got over 2 seconds but the Mercedes was quicker, it changes this year though to suit.

In Australia the gap back to Kimi was 3.3, Hamilton could not push no more, Vettel had an off day so that makes the Ferrari equal, we can twist it how we want but I don't believe the cars was equal, but using the same points I have read here for other races then they easily could be.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:29 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


In China if people just look at the end result they would think Redbull was the quickest car without actually looking at the race and finer details involved. You are willing to ignore other details which effected the race, Vettel lost over a second through his and his own team mistakes, the difference in tyres was 2 seconds or more. That basically covers the gap between the two cars before the pitstops. That is hell of alot of time, Vettel himself said they expected to come out in front but they miscalculated the tyres, mistakes happen but that doesn't suddenly make the cars equal. Also Ferrari had a buffer to the Mercedes, once roles reversed the Mercedes couldn't get away from Ferrari.
In Spa last year the gap never got over 2 seconds but the Mercedes was quicker, it changes this year though to suit.

In Australia the gap back to Kimi was 3.3, Hamilton could not push no more, Vettel had an off day so that makes the Ferrari equal, we can twist it how we want but I don't believe the cars was equal, but using the same points I have read here for other races then they easily could be.

I'm not ignoring anything. Vettel had been slightly quicker than Bottas, but not by much. He'd built up a 3.5s lead before Bottas pitted and 2.6s of that was in the opening two laps, meaning that he only managed to eke out just over five hundredths of a second a lap over the remaining 15 laps. This somehow proves that he had the quicker car?

I think there's a case to be made for the Ferrari and Mercedes being reasonably equal in Australia, looking back at it. Not in qualifying, where the Merc was clearly faster, but in the race Hamilton wasn't that much quicker than Kimi and I think that under normal circumstances Vettel should be faster than Kimi on race pace.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:37 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
In Australia the gap back to Kimi was 3.3, Hamilton could not push no more, Vettel had an off day so that makes the Ferrari equal, we can twist it how we want but I don't believe the cars was equal, but using the same points I have read here for other races then they easily could be.


I don't think you can twist anything you want - in this case, e.g., you cannot make this argument (bit in bold) because Mercedes/Hamilton admitted themselves they miscalculated the gap they needed to cover a VSC and would have been able to get more.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:13 am 
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mds wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
In Australia the gap back to Kimi was 3.3, Hamilton could not push no more, Vettel had an off day so that makes the Ferrari equal, we can twist it how we want but I don't believe the cars was equal, but using the same points I have read here for other races then they easily could be.


I don't think you can twist anything you want - in this case, e.g., you cannot make this argument (bit in bold) because Mercedes/Hamilton admitted themselves they miscalculated the gap they needed to cover a VSC and would have been able to get more.


I'm not actually saying he couldn't push no more, I'm just showing how I can make it look like he didn't have pace in hand. This was before the pitstops to Kimi and not the VSC.

Vettel admitted they miscalculated the gap in China so maybe he was able to get more? Ferrari just miscalculated the power of the undercut and including the mistakes lost the lead.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


By the same token, when Bottas beats Hamilton everyone seems to assume that it is Hamilton underperforming and not Bottas performing above expectation.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:37 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


By the same token, when Bottas beats Hamilton everyone seems to assume that it is Hamilton underperforming and not Bottas performing above expectation.


Works both ways. If Raikkonen beats Vettel people are also going to say Vettel underperforms instead of Raikkonen performing above expectation.
They are considered the better drivers so they are considered to be able to get the best out of the car when they are at their best.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:57 am 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
A “definitely faster car” doesn’t get undercut and lose the lead. Also, something that is often ignored is that Bottas was in fact pulling away from Vettel after the SC period. Mercedes was just as fast as Ferrari on Sunday in China.


That is not true which might be leading you to your conclusion. The gap was 1.8 seconds the first lap the SC went in, the next 6 laps Vettel was marginally quicker on. The gap he got overtaken on he was just 1.1 seconds behind Bottas.

Its also fair to assume Bottas was driving flat out as he would have been trying to create a gap to the Red Bulls if possible.

The point about the undercut stands, though. If the car was definitely faster that wouldn't have happened. In more equal cars, however, that's a possibility.

I think people fail to take the driver into account and it's particular obvious when things are close. When Lewis beat Bottas by 20s in Spain, no-one thinks he had a better car and everyone accepts he just drove better. Yet when Vettel has a far smaller margin over Bottas then it has to be that the Ferrari is quicker?


By the same token, when Bottas beats Hamilton everyone seems to assume that it is Hamilton underperforming and not Bottas performing above expectation.

Point is that some of the gaps that people use as "proof" of car superiority exist within teams and then they are accepted as one driver out-performing another. But when it's between team people look at the tiniest margins and try to make out it has to be the car


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:26 pm 
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https://www.motorsportitalia.net/merced ... castellet/

Italian site, so take it with a good amount of salt, but according to this there are rumours that Mercedes aren't sure yet about whether or not the new PU will be used this weekend as they're not confident about reliability yet. Decision should be taken close to FP1.

I imagine that in case it won't debut this week, then they'll probably do the triple-header with a new unit of the old specifciation. They could then introduce a new-spec unit e.g. in Germany, and introduce a second one where a penalty won't cost them as much e.g. in Italy. They then have two units to do the rest of the races with, with the added benefit that they could be tuned just a bit higher since they will do respectively 5 and 6 races instead of the 7 they're designed for.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Yes, I think worst case scenario is a new "old spec" engine in France. But even if they go that route, that old spec engine will not be the same one they installed 3 months ago in Australia, it will likely have many, if not most of the upgrades of the complete new spec to give some gains.

Is the rule, that all teams (works and customers) must have the same engine catching them out here. I.e. they can't produce 9x "fixed" new engines in the 2 weeks since they discovered the problem?


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