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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:23 pm 
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Lauda hints that Ferrari have been matching the Mercs' PU since Monza. Is this true or just another coy from Merc to keep the Ferraris comfortable.


Thoughts?


Source: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/lauda ... ine-power/


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:33 pm 
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People dismissed it as laughable when I said it earlier in the season.

Truth is ferraris main problem last few years has been downforce. Their engine is on par and if not superior to mercs


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:30 pm 
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I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:09 pm 
So a Ferrari Engined Red Bull is better than a Mercedes? Very possibly.

A BMW engined Mclaren might have been the best car circa 2001-2004


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:28 pm 
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lamo wrote:
So a Ferrari Engined Red Bull is better than a Mercedes? Very possibly.

A BMW engined Mclaren might have been the best car circa 2001-2004


That would assume the Red Bull is a better chassis than the Merc. If that's true then STR have produced an absolute monster budget considered.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:37 pm 
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lamo wrote:
A BMW engined Mclaren might have been the best car circa 2001-2004

Perhaps in 2001, but in 2002 and 2003 Williams also had an excellent chassis. Michelin was the main problem, at least in 2002.

Anyway, either Ferrari still lack some power relative to Mercedes engines, or they have a habit of running more wing. Vettel was constantly losing 0.3 seconds to Mercedes in S1 of Mexico, but absolutely matched them in S2 and S3.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:49 pm 
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I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Ferrari is not there yet with mercedes in terms of power. If you look at the trap speeds down the grid and see sauber, they are no match for even the weakest mercedes powered cars (lotus). The Ferrari works team never traps higher than any of the mercs cars either. That is a sign they are still behind. Just another rubbish comment from lauda...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:55 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Ferrari is not there yet with mercedes in terms of power. If you look at the trap speeds down the grid and see sauber, they are no match for even the weakest mercedes powered cars (lotus). The Ferrari works team never traps higher than any of the mercs cars either. That is a sign they are still behind. Just another rubbish comment from lauda...



You can't base this on trap speeds because they are mostly affected by set up direction rather than pure engine power.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:01 pm 
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I call BS. Look at the Ferrari customer teams, 10th and 8th, and only the extremely unreliable McHonda is in the mix of them. Ok, marussia has last year's one but with this years one they would still be last.

The Merc customer teams are 3rd, 5th and 6th.

Also considering the changed parts, the Merc engine is definitely more reliable than the Ferrari one.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:24 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ferrari is not there yet with mercedes in terms of power. If you look at the trap speeds down the grid and see sauber, they are no match for even the weakest mercedes powered cars (lotus). The Ferrari works team never traps higher than any of the mercs cars either. That is a sign they are still behind. Just another rubbish comment from lauda...



You can't base this on trap speeds because they are mostly affected by set up direction rather than pure engine power.


I beg to differ? The trap speeds clearly show what the current pecking order is:
Mercedes
Ferrari
Honda
Renault.

And yes I think the honda is more powerful than the Renault but it just has serious energy deployment issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:08 am 
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lamo wrote:
So a Ferrari Engined Red Bull is better than a Mercedes? Very possibly.

A BMW engined Mclaren might have been the best car circa 2001-2004

No because the Mercedes is rated better than the Red Bull, although it's possible that the Red Bull makes downforce compromises because of the engine?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.


Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:13 am 
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pokerman wrote:
No because the Mercedes is rated better than the Red Bull, although it's possible that the Red Bull makes downforce compromises because of the engine?

Thing is we've seen before that Red Bull are willing to stretch the regulations to gain an aero advantage meaning their aero devices will be banned or copied.

Mercedes is the best overall package, it's interaction with the Pirellis has been slightly inconsistent and that's the only thing prevent overwhelming dominance.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:27 am 
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In terms of ICE power maybe, but I'm doubtful Ferrari have matched them on the ERS side of things. I'm also sceptical about that Ferrari chassis, I don't think it's that good. I think it's solid, but If this wasn't such an engine dominated formula, I reckon the chassis would still be in the region of 3rd-4th best

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:37 am 
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Ferrari surely has been equal or even better at a few tracks than Mercedes. So they did make a huge step forward from last year but I think their PU is still behind Merc. Ferrari customer teams rarely have been competitive with STR being an anomaly when Seb won his first GP.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:59 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.


Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

This is the first time I have heard Lauda say this, I brought forward an article months ago from a journalist who said similar

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.


Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

This is the first time I have heard Lauda say this, I brought forward an article months ago from a journalist who said similar

I think you'll find more than one or two articles stating that Merc have the best PU. If you were interested in finding one that is.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.


Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

This is the first time I have heard Lauda say this, I brought forward an article months ago from a journalist who said similar

I think you'll find more than one or two articles stating that Merc have the best PU. If you were interested in finding one that is.

So you want me to find an article to defend your position?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:32 pm 
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Seb disagrees:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121757

"Now Niki usually is not the best one to trust, let's put it this way.

"He changes his opinion very quickly.

"Sometimes what he says makes sense, and other times he doesn't make any sense.

"But the more he is talking about us, the better it is for us.

"He can see maybe we are coming, and that is good news."


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Seb disagrees:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121757

"Now Niki usually is not the best one to trust, let's put it this way.

"He changes his opinion very quickly.

"Sometimes what he says makes sense, and other times he doesn't make any sense.

"But the more he is talking about us, the better it is for us.

"He can see maybe we are coming, and that is good news."

I'm not sure what to make of that because we know the Ferrari car itself is not as good as the Mercedes and Vettel doesn't make specific reference to the PU's.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
"Now Niki usually is not the best one to trust, let's put it this way.

"He changes his opinion very quickly.

"Sometimes what he says makes sense, and other times he doesn't make any sense.

Omg. I couldn't agree more with Vettel here. :lol:

Now I remember that Lauda said "Hamilton is the fastest" and then "Alonso is the fastest" in just several days of difference.


Last edited by nixxxon on Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've heard this said before even though the antis will never believe, the Ferrari chassis itself isn't the best, probably not even second best, Allison himself said it was a compromise.


Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

This is the first time I have heard Lauda say this, I brought forward an article months ago from a journalist who said similar

I think you'll find more than one or two articles stating that Merc have the best PU. If you were interested in finding one that is.

So you want me to find an article to defend your position?

No, I don't need one as i have read several, just pointing out that the majority still seem to believe otherwise, unless you think Lauda and the "other article" are superior credibility- wise?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Because Lauda... a Merc spokesperson says this... it is true and we have w1y! Breaking his arm patting himself on the back... and poker invoking the "antis"?
:lol:

This is the first time I have heard Lauda say this, I brought forward an article months ago from a journalist who said similar

I think you'll find more than one or two articles stating that Merc have the best PU. If you were interested in finding one that is.

So you want me to find an article to defend your position?

No, I don't need one as i have read several, just pointing out that the majority still seem to believe otherwise, unless you think Lauda and the "other article" are superior credibility- wise?

I'm constantly reading articles but the articles you mention I have never seen

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:33 pm 
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In that case I think you're reading the wrong kind of articles.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:45 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
In that case I think you're reading the wrong kind of articles.

....or they don't exist?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
In that case I think you're reading the wrong kind of articles.

....or they don't exist?


Your not going to read many articles saying that Mercedes is still better than Ferrari. It's not news.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:55 pm 
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Does the phrase "head in the sand" apply here ?
:nod:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:32 pm 
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All 3 of Ferrari's wins so far have came on circuits which are more reliant on chassis performance than engine power.

mikeyg123 wrote:
Malaysia?

Lots of high speed corners. Tests the downforce.

To put it into perspective, whenever Ferrari have won, McLaren Honda have also been reasonably competitive (by 2015 standards).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Does the phrase "head in the sand" apply here ?
:nod:

:nod:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:17 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:25 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.

In what way is it a total exaggeration? I think saying the Ferrari is comparable is an exaggeration


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.


Wouldn't you expect Sauber to be up with FI and Lotus in that case?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.


Wouldn't you expect Sauber to be up with FI and Lotus in that case?

Sauber have done almost zero development this season as they are a financial disaster. Also Sauber are not receiving the upgrades that Ferrari are using for their PU. Sauber are running the same spec engine that they were early in the year. Look at where they were in the early stages of the season and you'll see that they were absolutely a match for the Mercedes customer teams.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.


Wouldn't you expect Sauber to be up with FI and Lotus in that case?


The Sauber has, by their own admission, had pretty much no development this year, while the B spec FI has been a big improvement on their original effort, and the Enstone effort continue to be clearly capable of designing a decent car. The engine isn't the main performance differentiator between those teams.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think Lauda's talking rubbish, personally. The Mercedes is still the best PU by far.



Aye, the 1 second a lap advantage that it has given Lotus, FI and Williams over all the other teams bar Mercedes has been most helpful this year......


...In reality, it probably still shades it over the Ferrari but there is no way as much in it as some people like to make out.

Yeah there's not much in it between the power units. Mercedes' advantage over Ferrari is a holistic advantage that has to do with the way that their chassis and power unit work together. Rumor has it that Ferrari's 2016 car will be a far less compromised overall package that could potentially compete with Merc on even terms.

Of course that's all speculation but Zoue's comment that Mercedes is the best PU "by far" is a total exaggeration. Both manufacturers have figured out this current engine specification and are extracting excellent performance. It's Honda and Renault that still have yet to crack the code.

In what way is it a total exaggeration? I think saying the Ferrari is comparable is an exaggeration

There simply isn't a big difference between the two units. To say the Mercedes unit is better "by far" suggests that there is a big difference. The Mercedes car is still faster overall but at this stage, most of that difference comes from aerodynamic performance. Whenever we move to circuits that do not feature fast corners and a heavy reliance on aero, the gap between Ferrari and Mercedes closes right up.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:45 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ferrari is not there yet with mercedes in terms of power. If you look at the trap speeds down the grid and see sauber, they are no match for even the weakest mercedes powered cars (lotus). The Ferrari works team never traps higher than any of the mercs cars either. That is a sign they are still behind. Just another rubbish comment from lauda...



You can't base this on trap speeds because they are mostly affected by set up direction rather than pure engine power.


I beg to differ? The trap speeds clearly show what the current pecking order is:
Mercedes
Ferrari
Honda
Renault.

And yes I think the honda is more powerful than the Renault but it just has serious energy deployment issues.


Contradicting yourself with what the 'trap speeds clearly show' and your own opinion in the same post probably isn't the best starting position for an argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:12 pm 
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The reason they are not comparable in speed traps is because as stated ferrari have struggled with downforce over the years. It's not as efficient and therefore I imagine they have more wing at certain tracks.

They have a comparable engine and I would also say good mechanical grip.

People bring up Malaysia which is high speed corner track but mercs problem was really tyres, same as Singapore.

Both merc and ferraris engines are beasts.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
In that case I think you're reading the wrong kind of articles.

....or they don't exist?


Your not going to read many articles saying that Mercedes is still better than Ferrari. It's not news.

Yes the car is better but we are talking about PU's, is there any back up from Ferrari in the articles?

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