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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We do also have to consider when talking about 07/8 that we're talking about peak Kimi/Massa and a Rookie Lewis and a rattled Alonso on Bridgestones. Just the fact alone they are close between all 4 that year and what we've subsequently learned through the Alonso Ferrari years doesn't automatically point to a huge car advantage to Ferrari in in 07/8, however tempting it may be to think so.

It's not like we're talking about Lewis and Alonso circa 2012 here, and there could be a few tenths difference from that alone to consider.

Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:30 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We do also have to consider when talking about 07/8 that we're talking about peak Kimi/Massa and a Rookie Lewis and a rattled Alonso on Bridgestones. Just the fact alone they are close between all 4 that year and what we've subsequently learned through the Alonso Ferrari years doesn't automatically point to a huge car advantage to Ferrari in in 07/8, however tempting it may be to think so.

It's not like we're talking about Lewis and Alonso circa 2012 here, and there could be a few tenths difference from that alone to consider.

Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We do also have to consider when talking about 07/8 that we're talking about peak Kimi/Massa and a Rookie Lewis and a rattled Alonso on Bridgestones. Just the fact alone they are close between all 4 that year and what we've subsequently learned through the Alonso Ferrari years doesn't automatically point to a huge car advantage to Ferrari in in 07/8, however tempting it may be to think so.

It's not like we're talking about Lewis and Alonso circa 2012 here, and there could be a few tenths difference from that alone to consider.

Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:18 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We do also have to consider when talking about 07/8 that we're talking about peak Kimi/Massa and a Rookie Lewis and a rattled Alonso on Bridgestones. Just the fact alone they are close between all 4 that year and what we've subsequently learned through the Alonso Ferrari years doesn't automatically point to a huge car advantage to Ferrari in in 07/8, however tempting it may be to think so.

It's not like we're talking about Lewis and Alonso circa 2012 here, and there could be a few tenths difference from that alone to consider.

Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

Not to mention the outlier performance of Hamilton's teammate who finished 7th in the championship in 2008. Kovaleinen certainly wasn't a top tier driver but he wasn't slow either as he proved by beating out handy drivers like Fisichella and Trulli throughout his career. For him to be so far from the points lead indicates that the car wasn't on par with the Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:10 am 
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Posts: 25158
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

Not to mention the outlier performance of Hamilton's teammate who finished 7th in the championship in 2008. Kovaleinen certainly wasn't a top tier driver but he wasn't slow either as he proved by beating out handy drivers like Fisichella and Trulli throughout his career. For him to be so far from the points lead indicates that the car wasn't on par with the Ferrari.

And yet when he took over from Kimi in the Lotus he was worse than rubbish and his performance in that top car was consistent with his McLaren days.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:17 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

I'm curious as to what criteria you use to judge that? In 2007 The qualifying score was 9-8 in favour of Ferrari (and in at least one of those races the difference between them was less than a tenth), while in 2008 the score was 9-9. How does that show the McLaren lacking in basic speed?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:32 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What kind of belief system?.


A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

Not to mention the outlier performance of Hamilton's teammate who finished 7th in the championship in 2008. Kovaleinen certainly wasn't a top tier driver but he wasn't slow either as he proved by beating out handy drivers like Fisichella and Trulli throughout his career. For him to be so far from the points lead indicates that the car wasn't on par with the Ferrari.

And yet when he took over from Kimi in the Lotus he was worse than rubbish and his performance in that top car was consistent with his McLaren days.

It doesn't really matter. Does anyone think Heikki was anything close to a tier 1 driver?

The interesting thing (for me) is the way accepted wisdom says Button 'lucked' into his WDC/was rubbish compared to Lewis (apart from '11) and is now being up-graded compared to Alonso.

There's a 'glitch' in the system here, unless of course one thinks most drivers need a car that suits them.

Or of course, need to be told they are not god's gift to F1....

Do I need to point out examples of the 'gift to F1' complex?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We do also have to consider when talking about 07/8 that we're talking about peak Kimi/Massa and a Rookie Lewis and a rattled Alonso on Bridgestones. Just the fact alone they are close between all 4 that year and what we've subsequently learned through the Alonso Ferrari years doesn't automatically point to a huge car advantage to Ferrari in in 07/8, however tempting it may be to think so.

It's not like we're talking about Lewis and Alonso circa 2012 here, and there could be a few tenths difference from that alone to consider.

Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?

Lewis had the most number of poles out of anyone in 2008. If you are going to use stats, as least check before you post. As for wins, does the fact that Lewis failed to convert his poles to wins mean that the car was bad, or does it indicate he didn't have the best year? In Canada he won pole and we all know why he didn't get the win there. Hint, it had nothing to do with how bad the car was. In Hungary Lewis got pole but a relatively poor start and dropped behind Massa. He finished in 5th due in part to a puncture. Again, not down to a slow car. In Belgium we know he won on track and finished well ahead of Massa, so again not down to having a poor car. In Japan Lewis threw it away by driving like a hooligan and was even criticised by his home press for it. Again, nothing to do with a slow car.

The bottom line is that Lewis had more poles than anyone and the fact he didn't convert them to wins had nothing whatsoever to do with him having any kind of car disadvantage. You can't just look at the stats with no context like some kind of Top Trumps competition and conclude that the Ferrari was quicker. Lewis had the opportunity to finish the year with the most poles and wins and clear the title by a landslide, but he didn't take it. But there was nothing wrong with the car


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

I'm curious as to what criteria you use to judge that? In 2007 The qualifying score was 9-8 in favour of Ferrari (and in at least one of those races the difference between them was less than a tenth), while in 2008 the score was 9-9. How does that show the McLaren lacking in basic speed?


Sorry for screwing up the posts again...


I don't think anyone's saying that. Us 'unbelievers' are just saying that the Mclaren was the car of the season - but the drivers fell short because of political infighting/inexperience in the car or pure arrogant self-belief that would not allow either of them to even consider their team mate.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:46 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

I'm curious as to what criteria you use to judge that? In 2007 The qualifying score was 9-8 in favour of Ferrari (and in at least one of those races the difference between them was less than a tenth), while in 2008 the score was 9-9. How does that show the McLaren lacking in basic speed?
I don't think anyone's saying that. Us 'unbelievers' are just saying that the Mclaren was the car of the season - but the drivers fell short because of political infighting/inexperience in the car or pure arrogant self-belief that would not allow either of them to even consider their team mate.

But pokerman clearly states that the McLaren lacked basic speed. This seems, er, unlikely


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

I'm curious as to what criteria you use to judge that? In 2007 The qualifying score was 9-8 in favour of Ferrari (and in at least one of those races the difference between them was less than a tenth), while in 2008 the score was 9-9. How does that show the McLaren lacking in basic speed?

You think that Massa and Kimi have the same basic speed as Hamilton, Massa was 2 to 3 tenths slower than Alonso at Ferrari, Kimi has been 2 to 3 tenths slower than Alonso and Vettel these past 3 years.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:11 pm 
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Posts: 33337
LKS1 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

Not to mention the outlier performance of Hamilton's teammate who finished 7th in the championship in 2008. Kovaleinen certainly wasn't a top tier driver but he wasn't slow either as he proved by beating out handy drivers like Fisichella and Trulli throughout his career. For him to be so far from the points lead indicates that the car wasn't on par with the Ferrari.

And yet when he took over from Kimi in the Lotus he was worse than rubbish and his performance in that top car was consistent with his McLaren days.

It doesn't really matter. Does anyone think Heikki was anything close to a tier 1 driver?

The interesting thing (for me) is the way accepted wisdom says Button 'lucked' into his WDC/was rubbish compared to Lewis (apart from '11) and is now being up-graded compared to Alonso.

There's a 'glitch' in the system here, unless of course one thinks most drivers need a car that suits them.

Or of course, need to be told they are not god's gift to F1....

Do I need to point out examples of the 'gift to F1' complex?

The low rating of Button would be mainly from people not wanting to rate Hamilton too highly, given how Button is presently performing against Alonso I wonder if people would want to revisit those McLaren years now and see just how well Hamilton performed in 2010 and 2012?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:13 pm 
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Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

I'm curious as to what criteria you use to judge that? In 2007 The qualifying score was 9-8 in favour of Ferrari (and in at least one of those races the difference between them was less than a tenth), while in 2008 the score was 9-9. How does that show the McLaren lacking in basic speed?

You think that Massa and Kimi have the same basic speed as Hamilton, Massa was 2 to 3 tenths slower than Alonso at Ferrari, Kimi has been 2 to 3 tenths slower than Alonso and Vettel these past 3 years.

And yet the figures - not opinion - show that the McLaren and Ferrari were fairly evenly matched. If the Ferrari and McLaren drivers shared pole honours almost exactly, then how can you possibly assert that he lacked basic speed? Bearing in mind you're the one talking about "belief systems"


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.

Not to mention the outlier performance of Hamilton's teammate who finished 7th in the championship in 2008. Kovaleinen certainly wasn't a top tier driver but he wasn't slow either as he proved by beating out handy drivers like Fisichella and Trulli throughout his career. For him to be so far from the points lead indicates that the car wasn't on par with the Ferrari.

And yet when he took over from Kimi in the Lotus he was worse than rubbish and his performance in that top car was consistent with his McLaren days.

It doesn't really matter. Does anyone think Heikki was anything close to a tier 1 driver?

The interesting thing (for me) is the way accepted wisdom says Button 'lucked' into his WDC/was rubbish compared to Lewis (apart from '11) and is now being up-graded compared to Alonso.

There's a 'glitch' in the system here, unless of course one thinks most drivers need a car that suits them.

Or of course, need to be told they are not god's gift to F1....

Do I need to point out examples of the 'gift to F1' complex?

The low rating of Button would be mainly from people not wanting to rate Hamilton too highly, given how Button is presently performing against Alonso I wonder if people would want to revisit those McLaren years now and see just how well Hamilton performed in 2010 and 2012?

See this kind of stuff really irritates me, how you see absolutely everything only in terms of how it affects Lewis. For you people can't possibly be judging Button because of how they view Button as a driver. No, it has to be because they want to discredit Lewis. The world doesn't revolve around Lewis for the majority of people, it really doesn't. Sometimes people may view drivers without even considering Lewis in the equation, as difficult as it may be to believe. In fact, I think it's a little bit insulting to be told your own views don't count unless they relate to Lewis in some way.

And how many people have actually stated that they thought Lewis didn't perform very well in 2012? Seriously?

I get you like Lewis. That's your prerogative. But please try and view the world occasionally without Lewis-coloured glasses on. It really isn't always about him


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Whereas Alonso fans would have us believe that Hamilton has never driven better than in 2007 whilst like you said Alonso himself had an off year, with this kind of belief system nothing is ever as it seems and every theory has the same weight.

Massa magically went from a journeyman driver to a WDC capable driver overnight and then just as quickly returned to his former status, or he's never been the same driver after his accident, and so on, and so on.


What kind of belief system?.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here or are you just trying to create another strawman?. What was so wrong with what I wrote?.

A belief system that from 2007-2009 Massa was a tier 1 driver, a driver with a journeyman record against teammates, also does Hamilton's rookie status embody 2008 as well to explain Massa having more wins, more poles, Kimi setting a record number of fastest laps, but the cars were equal?


I'm not saying Massa was Tier 1, I'm saying he was at his peak. As for Lewis in 08, no he wasn't a rookie but was he at his best?. If not then the point I made still stands.

I'm talking about as much as anything about basic speed, the Ferrari was in both 2007 and 2008 more often than not the fastest car, so both years Hamilton lacked basic speed against Massa and Kimi, i just can't see that and then throw in Alonso in 2007.


But you're still using gaps Alonso had over Massa in his 4th year on Bridgestones and then Pirelli's when he was comfortably No.1 in the team and with the entire team around him and gaps to Kimi in similar circumstances and claiming he managed to have at least those same gaps while in his first year at McLaren, on his first year on Bridgestones, rattled by a super quick Rookie and at war with his team.

It's fanciful. I know people like to claim Alonso is the most adaptable driver on the grid and he's a machine,robot or what have you but it's ridiculous. He'd be the GOAT if he was able to perform exactly the same in both scenario's. And that's still assuming Kimi and Massa both performed the exact same as well, which for their own reasons seem unlikely too.

As for Lewis he never looked like he lacked basic speed to me, just some consistency and experience, which would be enough to get the results we saw even if the cars were identical.

I don't know what one was the quickest car, I've always leaned towards the Ferrari being slightly better overall because a copy is never as good as the original :o . But it's as close as two cars get really, they both looked stronger on certain tracks and certain conditions so I've never lost my mind if someone see's it the other way. It's just the reasoning I keep reading that makes no sense lately..

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:32 pm 
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Aaaaaaaaaand it's another thread about Lewis.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:37 pm 
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Is this really a thread about Bottas? :-P

Page 3 seems to have 16 posts so far not even mentioning his name once. I did read through them quickly so I apologise if someone has mentioned him :lol:

I was just scrolling though it trying to find something relating to the first post...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:38 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaand it's another thread about Lewis.

It's not.

What I see is a debate between forum members about many different drivers and how they compare to one another and why.
And since no new news has surfaces since I posted this, I don't see anything wrong with the broadening of the debate.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:07 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Aaaaaaaaaand it's another thread about Lewis.

Sorry I blame the 4 week break and not much happening.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:08 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You see that's the problem if you actually believe the cars were evenly matched, they were not driving the same car after all.

This thing about Massa being more motivated when he he has to fight against Hamilton might have some legs though, I'm thinking more about 2011. ;)

The 2007 & 2008 Ferrari's were as evenly matched as we've ever seen in F1. While they were 2 different constructors, the cars shared a bunch of similarities and the biggest difference was how much stiffer the McLaren was under braking which was highlighted by Hamilton lighting up his inside fronts constantly. The Ferrari's rear suspension was set a touch more plush because both Massa and Raikkonen like to feel the front end of the car more than the rear. Hamilton likes the rear of his cars sprung a touch more stiffly so even in the current Mercedes you see him light up his inside tires from time to time whereas Rosberg rarely does by comparison.

Those cars, while different, were strikingly similar. Only on a few tracks did their performance differ closer to what could be considered greatly, but on most tracks they were neck and neck, capable of matching lap times to one another with ease.

I'm of the opinion that Ferrari were superior to McLaren in those years, McLaren just had better drivers in 2007 and retained one of them in 2008.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:15 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
My prediction for drivers next years
Kvyat - 10% chance he stays at Toro Rosso, but dependent on his performance post the summer break. Most likely out of TR and F1

So wrong n so many levels - makes my blood boil thinking about it :mad: :mad: :mad:

Okay that's my vent for the day, back to the topic

I think Williams know it's the cars that have been the bigger letdown, if I was them, I'd see how the new 2017 rules suit their drivers. Especially knowing there isn't and won't be any dramas you get with teammates not liking each other


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