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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:45 pm 
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http://www.planetf1.com/news/team-mate- ... panese-gp/

I didn't realise Kimi was so competitive this year.

Max also has a crushing advantage over Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:54 pm 
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I stopped reading that garbage "feature" a long time ago......

Complete waste of bandwidth.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:56 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
I stopped reading that garbage "feature" a long time ago......

Complete waste of bandwidth.



Yes it seems utterly bizarre.


"From the opening lap Lewis was kept on his guard, but ultimately didn’t have the pace (or didn’t care to show the pace – there’s a school of thought that he has fully absorbed the Senna mantra of winning by the slimmest margin and protecting the machinery) to drop Max Verstappen."

Does that make sense to you guys?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:07 pm 
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The author is generally consistent on his reasoning. If you retire ahead of your team mate and it's not your fault he gives you the point.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:12 pm 
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The Vettel/Kimi comparison seems somewhat baffling.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:16 pm 
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I'm really not sure how you can come up with 8-8 for Vettel vs. Kimi. Is there some reasoning that would lead to that statistic?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Invade wrote:
SteveW wrote:
I stopped reading that garbage "feature" a long time ago......

Complete waste of bandwidth.



Yes it seems utterly bizarre.


"From the opening lap Lewis was kept on his guard, but ultimately didn’t have the pace (or didn’t care to show the pace – there’s a school of thought that he has fully absorbed the Senna mantra of winning by the slimmest margin and protecting the machinery) to drop Max Verstappen."

Does that make sense to you guys?
No, because that (from what I can remember) is the exact OPPOSITE of the Senna Mantra of "go as fast as you can even if you don't need to"


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
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That "article" has never made any sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:21 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
Invade wrote:
(or didn’t care to show the pace – there’s a school of thought that he has fully absorbed the Senna mantra of winning by the slimmest margin and protecting the machinery)

Does that make sense to you guys?

No, because that (from what I can remember) is the exact OPPOSITE of the Senna Mantra of "go as fast as you can even if you don't need to"

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Since when was that anything like Senna's mantra? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:19 pm 
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It seems to me that it’s PF1’s version of “Click Bait”, to help boost their ad revenue.

If you view it in that light it makes a lot more sense....


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:09 am 
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How could Raikkonen and Vettel be 8-8, Kimi has finished ahead of him once in 16 races.

At best you can give Kimi - Silverstone, Baku and then what... Singapore? Hungary? Monaco? Malaysia?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:08 am 
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SteveW wrote:
Invade wrote:
SteveW wrote:
I stopped reading that garbage "feature" a long time ago......

Complete waste of bandwidth.



Yes it seems utterly bizarre.


"From the opening lap Lewis was kept on his guard, but ultimately didn’t have the pace (or didn’t care to show the pace – there’s a school of thought that he has fully absorbed the Senna mantra of winning by the slimmest margin and protecting the machinery) to drop Max Verstappen."

Does that make sense to you guys?
No, because that (from what I can remember) is the exact OPPOSITE of the Senna Mantra of "go as fast as you can even if you don't need to"


Exactly, it was Senna's nemesis Prost who drove only as fast as he had to, and conserved his machinery.

I tried to read the article but it was incoherent and involved more emotional buzzwords than logic or unbiased opinion. It should have been written in crayon, a six year old could have done a better job.

One of my rules: if it comes from a tabloid type news service, it is garbage.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
How could Raikkonen and Vettel be 8-8, Kimi has finished ahead of him once in 16 races.

At best you can give Kimi - Silverstone, Baku and then what... Singapore? Hungary? Monaco? Malaysia?



Yeah but you're forgetting that Vettel is German and a threat to their beloved British champion and must be marked down.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:34 am 
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A kind of explanation could perhaps be found in this short, unqualified statement:

Raikkonen’s pace showed that had both Ferraris been up to speed

Kimi's car was not up to Vettel's car's speed?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:35 am 
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First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the mid season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:00 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:14 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...



Ericsson's crashes haven't been as bad as Sainz's. And he hasn't caused as many retirements either. My main point is that so many heavily criticize Ericsson and praise Sainz when he's had some of the worst incidents of any driver this year. I did also mention that Sainz often had good pace didn't I? I just don't know why people don't seem to refer to his messy races. The main reason why I criticise Sainz is because I don't get how so many say he's so good. This season, I would only just have him inside the top 10 as he's been very inconsistent with some great drives but pretty much as many massive mistakes. As he crashes quite a lot and 2 of his incidents have been about the worst crashes by any driver this season and people seem to remember his good performances more than them but focus much more on Ericsson's crashes that were not as bad.

To make it clear, Sainz is obviously much better than Ericsson as he often does perform really well, but why isn't is that Ericsson seems to be known for crashing when his mistakes haven't been as bad as Sainz? I'll mention this again as I did earlier in the season, Ericsson is one of the only drivers on the grid without any penalty points. He keeps out of trouble in this area where as many drivers that are really highly rated have lots.

I also have no clue where you read my 12 lines of criticizing Sainz. The only paragraph including Sainz is the last one and I can only see 6 lines. And I only have written 3 sentences about Sainz that I can agree I am saying negative things about him. But that is no way 12 lines of criticising Sainz.....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:30 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...



Ericsson's crashes haven't been as bad as Sainz's. And he hasn't caused as many retirements either. My main point is that so many heavily criticize Ericsson and praise Sainz when he's had some of the worst incidents of any driver this year. I did also mention that Sainz often had good pace didn't I? I just don't know why people don't seem to refer to his messy races. The main reason why I criticise Sainz is because I don't get how so many say he's so good. This season, I would only just have him inside the top 10 as he's been very inconsistent with some great drives but pretty much as many massive mistakes. As he crashes quite a lot and 2 of his incidents have been about the worst crashes by any driver this season and people seem to remember his good performances more than them but focus much more on Ericsson's crashes that were not as bad.

To make it clear, Sainz is obviously much better than Ericsson as he often does perform really well, but why isn't is that Ericsson seems to be known for crashing when his mistakes haven't been as bad as Sainz? I'll mention this again as I did earlier in the season, Ericsson is one of the only drivers on the grid without any penalty points. He keeps out of trouble in this area where as many drivers that are really highly rated have lots.


Ericsson has lost control of his car for no particular reason a number of times.

The other scary thing is, during the off at Suzuka, when he began to slide off, he kept his foot on the brakes, giving him no steering whatsoever, and therefore no chance at all to avoid the wall.




Really terrible stuff.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:41 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...



Ericsson's crashes haven't been as bad as Sainz's. And he hasn't caused as many retirements either. My main point is that so many heavily criticize Ericsson and praise Sainz when he's had some of the worst incidents of any driver this year. I did also mention that Sainz often had good pace didn't I? I just don't know why people don't seem to refer to his messy races. The main reason why I criticise Sainz is because I don't get how so many say he's so good. This season, I would only just have him inside the top 10 as he's been very inconsistent with some great drives but pretty much as many massive mistakes. As he crashes quite a lot and 2 of his incidents have been about the worst crashes by any driver this season and people seem to remember his good performances more than them but focus much more on Ericsson's crashes that were not as bad.

To make it clear, Sainz is obviously much better than Ericsson as he often does perform really well, but why isn't is that Ericsson seems to be known for crashing when his mistakes haven't been as bad as Sainz? I'll mention this again as I did earlier in the season, Ericsson is one of the only drivers on the grid without any penalty points. He keeps out of trouble in this area where as many drivers that are really highly rated have lots.


Ericsson has lost control of his car for no particular reason a number of times.

The other scary thing is, during the off at Suzuka, when he began to slide off, he kept his foot on the brakes, giving him no steering whatsoever, and therefore no chance at all to avoid the wall.




Really terrible stuff.

Sorry to sound like I'm defending him again, but if he didn't brake, will the outcome really have been much better? It was going to wide that caused it and I would have thought he would have caused about an equal amount of damage if he had lifted off the brakes and got round a bit further. While braking locks you up and prevents you from steering, surly it will slow you down more than it would have done if he didn't do this. If he didn't brake as much, I still think that people will have had a go at him. But fair enough, it was clearly his fault to start with. I just don't think the way he braked will have made a massive difference to the amount of damage he got. You are better off hitting the front of the car than spinning and walloping the back or the side I would have thought. But could be wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:47 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...



Ericsson's crashes haven't been as bad as Sainz's. And he hasn't caused as many retirements either. My main point is that so many heavily criticize Ericsson and praise Sainz when he's had some of the worst incidents of any driver this year. I did also mention that Sainz often had good pace didn't I? I just don't know why people don't seem to refer to his messy races. The main reason why I criticise Sainz is because I don't get how so many say he's so good. This season, I would only just have him inside the top 10 as he's been very inconsistent with some great drives but pretty much as many massive mistakes. As he crashes quite a lot and 2 of his incidents have been about the worst crashes by any driver this season and people seem to remember his good performances more than them but focus much more on Ericsson's crashes that were not as bad.

To make it clear, Sainz is obviously much better than Ericsson as he often does perform really well, but why isn't is that Ericsson seems to be known for crashing when his mistakes haven't been as bad as Sainz? I'll mention this again as I did earlier in the season, Ericsson is one of the only drivers on the grid without any penalty points. He keeps out of trouble in this area where as many drivers that are really highly rated have lots.

I also have no clue where you read my 12 lines of criticizing Sainz. The only paragraph including Sainz is the last one and I can only see 6 lines. And I only have written 3 sentences about Sainz that I can agree I am saying negative things about him. But that is no way 12 lines of criticising Sainz.....


The paragraph is 8 lines. I just glanced at it and clearly overestimated.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
First time I've read this article. I think it is clearly written by someone with a very strong opinion. Not very good for an article like this.

I don't understand how Hamilton has 13 and Bottas has 3. Bottas has had at leased 4 weekends where he looked overall did better than Hamilton. Clearly Russia and Monaco. Then Australia and Hungary too. How can this not be 4 - 12 at least? If it is based on who finishes ahead, then that should go towards Bottas a bit more too. I don't think it is though but 3 - 13 just seems wrong.

Verstappen and Ricciardo's numbers seem a bit crazy too. Is this seriously giving Verstappen the point for being ahead and then retiring on the first lap? Who knows weather he'd have had a terrible or great race. He's made mistakes and cost either himself or the team on 2 occasions and had so many retirements, it is just silly to say he's been better that Ricciardo 12 out of 16 races. Ricciardo has crashed twice in qualifying, but had to retire in one of these races anyway and made up for the other by winning in Baku.

I really can't understand the 8 - 8 between Vettel and Raikkonen. Even when reading the description below it, I can't understand how they gave them equal numbers.


I also think the analysis between that Sauber drivers is just pathetic. If your just saying one crashed and the other didn't, why bother mentioning them? Surely you could do a description about the reasons for the rating. I have done quite a few long and detailed views on Wehrlein and Ericsson before. I still don't think there is a huge difference on race pace. Ericsson certainly seems to crash quite a bit, but Wehrlein's crash in qualifying during Canada looked worse than any of Ericsson's crashes and it damaged his gearbox resulting in him having to start from the pit lane which ended up making his race much worse than it could have been. Ericsson finished about 40 seconds ahead. When both have finished, they both have had races where they have finished well ahead of each other. And this isn't just towards Wehrlein. In Russia, Ericsson finished 30 seconds ahead when they were both on identical strategies. Even before Wehrlein got took out by Button in Monaco, Ericsson was 40 seconds ahead of Wehrlein at that point.

Although Ericsson has crashed a lot more this season, if I ignore that, I don't think the pace difference between them is very big at all. Even looking at the qualifying difference on the did season analysis on F1 fanatic, the difference with the average time gap between these 2 was tiny. So even though Wehrlein very often beats him in qualifying, when Ericsson beats him, it must have been by a bigger gap.

I think that when people compare these 2, they focus too hard on the negative points about Ericsson. He does have a lot of crashes, but he also has decent pace and really isn't that far off his team mate on the whole in this area. Wehrlein has got the points, but if the strategy had got switched round in Spain and the team orders had got how the team said they would in Baku, it is likely that Ericsson will have 3 - 4 points and Wehrlein wouldn't have any. I thought on both the weekends Wehrlein got points, both drivers had very similar pace.



I also am getting fed up of people referring to Maldonado when someone crashes. "The Maldonado Award" - That really doesn't look like a professional article. In Maldonado's most recent season (possibly even his 2014 season), he had less costly crashes than Sainz has had this year. I think he was only fully responsible for a retirement a maximum of 2 times during the race in 2015. Maybe even just once. Where as Sainz has now caused 5 retirements and the season isn't even over. In terms of the quantity of mistakes Sainz has made, he's barely been better than Kvyat. Kvyat has only forced himself to retire once and that was in Singapore. He may have caused Sainz, Alonso and Verstappen to retire, but it wasn't exactly a really heavy hit as he didn't do enough damage in either of these to damage his car. Sainz just has made up for his mistakes by usually being pretty strong and already getting quite a lot of points for the team. Kvyat has had a fair bit more bad luck and will have managed quite a few more points if it wasn't for this, but I still think Kvyat is up to the job of doing a reasonable job next year if he has a new team mate. He hopefully then will be more relaxed and manage to put in some good performances without making mistakes. We've seen he can do this from the past. He actually looked very strong in Australia this year. Whereas a driver like Palmer hasn't really shown a single great performance in the races. The only outstanding performance from him I'd say looked to be qualifying in Spa when he looked to be the next quickest driver after the top 3 teams.


In the same post you have you excused Ericsson being crash happy as he has good pace and said then spent about 12 lines criticising Sainz for crashing too much despite good race pace?

It reads a lot like you try to manipulate your take on events to fit your opinions just as much as the PF1 author of that article...



Ericsson's crashes haven't been as bad as Sainz's. And he hasn't caused as many retirements either. My main point is that so many heavily criticize Ericsson and praise Sainz when he's had some of the worst incidents of any driver this year. I did also mention that Sainz often had good pace didn't I? I just don't know why people don't seem to refer to his messy races. The main reason why I criticise Sainz is because I don't get how so many say he's so good. This season, I would only just have him inside the top 10 as he's been very inconsistent with some great drives but pretty much as many massive mistakes. As he crashes quite a lot and 2 of his incidents have been about the worst crashes by any driver this season and people seem to remember his good performances more than them but focus much more on Ericsson's crashes that were not as bad.

To make it clear, Sainz is obviously much better than Ericsson as he often does perform really well, but why isn't is that Ericsson seems to be known for crashing when his mistakes haven't been as bad as Sainz? I'll mention this again as I did earlier in the season, Ericsson is one of the only drivers on the grid without any penalty points. He keeps out of trouble in this area where as many drivers that are really highly rated have lots.

I also have no clue where you read my 12 lines of criticizing Sainz. The only paragraph including Sainz is the last one and I can only see 6 lines. And I only have written 3 sentences about Sainz that I can agree I am saying negative things about him. But that is no way 12 lines of criticising Sainz.....


The paragraph is 8 lines. I just glanced at it and clearly overestimated.

Well there is something I didn't think about either. It will depend on the device you view it on. As for me it certainly is just 6 lines. Anyway, I do agree I was criticising Sainz and praising Ericsson. I mainly do that because I think Ericsson's decent drives don't get noticed and Sainz's terrible mistakes often get forgotten.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:08 am 
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Posts: 932
Invade wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/team-mate-wars-japanese-gp/

I didn't realise Kimi was so competitive this year.

Max also has a crushing advantage over Ricciardo.


I tell you why.

It infuriates some people and that's it. It's an opinion piece not a factual one. You could argue that if Kimi has a problem during practice/qualifying that it might impact his weekend?

Likewise for Max/Ric, you can't really compare anything if Max is out on lap one. We've seen Ric wake up more towards the end of a race or get hampered in the first lap. Max on the other hand you could say get's hampered after lap 1 due to reliability/crashes etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20560
Teddy007 wrote:
Invade wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/team-mate-wars-japanese-gp/

I didn't realise Kimi was so competitive this year.

Max also has a crushing advantage over Ricciardo.


I tell you why.

It infuriates some people and that's it. It's an opinion piece not a factual one. You could argue that if Kimi has a problem during practice/qualifying that it might impact his weekend?

Likewise for Max/Ric, you can't really compare anything if Max is out on lap one. We've seen Ric wake up more towards the end of a race or get hampered in the first lap. Max on the other hand you could say get's hampered after lap 1 due to reliability/crashes etc.

While I agree with the general point, that several things may impact a weekend's performance, I also think it's been fairly plain to see that Kimi is fairly noticeably slower over a race distance than his team mate. He fares better in qualifying, but can't seem to sustain that in a race. And Vettel almost invariably gets the better out of his car. Which makes the 8-8 comparison somewhat odd


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