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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:35 am 
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It's been close but Barcelona marks the start of massive upgrade battle, no?

Who do you think has the edge now?

In one sense.. clearly Merc were faster in Q, but when have they not been? Bot had an old engine too.

In another sense,

1. Ham/Merc had pole
2. Vet/Ferrari led easily thru T1
3. Vet lost 6s at least by being held up by Bottas (whose role today was to hold up Vet clearly imho)
4. Vet lost 8s thru very clever Merc strategy by not pitting immediately on VSC and waiting till it was about to end
5, If Vet had not outbraked himself when Massa was letting him past it would've been closer.

Ham might still have done it without one of those reasons, or even two, but ferrari have the faster car it seems and were beaten by Merc being able to use a 2nd car and very clever strategy.

Agree? Disagree?

The vote is open till end of season~ish and you can change your vote :)

Have fun :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:48 am 
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Still Ferrari, in the races at least. They had the fastest car in Spain, just like they had at every track except possibly Sochi. And in that case, it may just have been exceptional driving by Bottas that made the Mercedes look quicker.

Mercedes still has an advantage in qualifying, and it's very close between the cars. But I would say Ferrari is faster.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:52 am 
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I think Ferrari in races by a small margin.

The gaps are small enough that they can be overcome by good strategy and good driving. I think quite often we havecseen the slower car win.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:56 am 
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Still the Mercedes, fantastic work by Ferrari to have come so close.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:28 am 
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Still the Mercedes. I think their upgrades worked quite well. Just look at the difference with the Vettel/Bottas and Hamilton/Vettel overtakes. The Mercedes was much harder to catch on the straight than the Ferrari was. The cars are close but I think the Mercedes just edges it


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:49 am 
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Ferrari definitely at this stage, but I think the balance may shift dependant on tyre. The softer tyres work better on the Ferrari but the medium to hard seem to swing in mercs favour.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:11 am 
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Mercedes still - and now they seem to be completely on top of their tyre woes, as evidenced by their really long stints. I think while Lewis was helped by the VSC yesterday, he still would have been able to get back at Vettel even without it - and judging by the ease with which he passed Vettel (especially when compared to Vettel on Bottas who was on really old softs), all indications are that Merc is indeed the car to beat, still. Ferrari are very very close though.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:29 am 
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Too close to call for me, but if I had to get off the fence I'd probably give Merc the nod because even though race pace (when taking tyre degradation into consideration) is virtually identical, Mercedes have an easier job getting by cars on the straights

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:47 am 
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Mercedes wasn't clearly faster in quali at Spain, Vettel could have quite easily of grabbed pole and would anyone be surprised if Ferrari did it at Monaco?

Ferrari have the edge in races for me. It's just the little things make the difference in races. Kimi going out early, VSC and Bottas holding up Vettel. These things can make the difference in each grand prix.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:41 am 
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Mercedes better car. Vettel making the Ferrari look equal.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:41 am 
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Up until Spain I think Ferrari had the race pace edge when factoring in all of the first four races and that Mercedes had the qualifying edge. Now things are interesting: Toto suggested that Ferrari were using some new engine mode to be so close to Hamilton in qualifying and he sounded rather suspicious while mentioning it; also the Mercedes upgrades seem to have balanced the car and made it more stable and consistent through all stints and on all (or more) tyres in the races.

Mercedes raw pace at its best might still have been better than Ferrari's in the first races but the consistency of race pace through the stints was dubious and they appear to have fixed that, albeit only on the evidence of one race so far and only on the evidence of one driver. At the same time, Ferrari were very close in qualifying and Vettel was destroying Mercedes in S1 and S2, with Hamilton pipping pole by crushing S3 by several tenths over the next best.

Ferrari is catching up in qualifying and Mercedes are catching up in the race. Expect a fierce battle up to the final race.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:48 am 
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One chink in Merc's armor so far, they're rubbish following another car while the Ferrari seems to manage it pretty well for a decently long stint without losing performance.

Even yesterday, if Hamilton had stayed behind Vettel for 2-3 more laps, his rear tires would've gone off handing the advantage back to Vettel. Even with the pass done, he had to manage temps for a few laps to get things under control.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 11:57 am 
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I wonder how Merc will navigate their lorries/limozines through Monaco.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Too close to call really.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:15 pm 
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There really should be an equal choice in this poll. The cars are so closely matched now that the input of the driver seems to be more important.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Still Ferrari, in the races at least. They had the fastest car in Spain, just like they had at every track except possibly Sochi. And in that case, it may just have been exceptional driving by Bottas that made the Mercedes look quicker.

Mercedes still has an advantage in qualifying, and it's very close between the cars. But I would say Ferrari is faster.


Mercedes have had the better race car in the last 2 races, the tide has moved to Mercedes although not by much.

Just look at the first stint in Spain (the only real comparison). Vettel pulled 2.2 seconds on lap 1 and never pulled the gap any further. By the end of the stint Hamilton was catching him, once Vettel pitted Hamilton went 0.2-0.3 per lap quicker than the Vettel in laps. All the other stints is analysing different aged tyres and compounds at different times of the race. In the first stint head to head, the Ferrari was certainly no quicker and Hamilton stayed with him the entire stint without any DRS towing too.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I wonder how Merc will navigate their lorries/limozines through Monaco.


I was worried about that, but they were quickest through S3 in Spain, at least in Hamiltons hands

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I wonder how Merc will navigate their lorries/limozines through Monaco.


I was worried about that, but they were quickest through S3 in Spain, at least in Hamiltons hands. The Mercedes of 2013 was also very quick in that sector and from it everybody predicted them to win in Monaco and they did.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:26 pm 
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https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4 ... be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


That's terrific. Take a look, folks.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


Different regs and cars right now, though. How relevant is 2014 to now? Not very, I'd say.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


To me you sound more like a Lewis fan than analyzing what actually is happening, but that's ok


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


And Bottas getting a pole in one race and a win in another was what?.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


And Bottas getting a pole in one race and a win in another was what?.


Bottas being better than Raikkonen at this stage of their career.
Kimi had all the tools to claim pole this year in Barcelona( more than Vettel) but failed.

When was Raikkonen last win? and you can not tell me he never had the car to do it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


And Bottas getting a pole in one race and a win in another was what?.


Bottas being better than Raikkonen at this stage of their career.
Kimi had all the tools to claim pole this year in Barcelona( more than Vettel) but failed to do so.

When was Raikkonen last win? and you can not tell me he never had the car to do it.


What's Kimi got to do with it?. He's claiming it's Lewis making the Mercedes appear equal or better than the Ferrari but Bottas has done everything he's done in it too. He's beaten Seb in Q and the Race and has a pole and a win.

Ferrari/Mercedes look genuinely close, I don't think 1 driver in either team is flattering the car.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


I know Bottas has only beaten Vettel once in 5 but how do you explain Russia then?

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


And Bottas getting a pole in one race and a win in another was what?.


Bottas being better than Raikkonen at this stage of their career.
Kimi had all the tools to claim pole this year in Barcelona( more than Vettel) but failed to do so.

When was Raikkonen last win? and you can not tell me he never had the car to do it.


What's Kimi got to do with it?. He's claiming it's Lewis making the Mercedes appear equal or better than the Ferrari but Bottas has done everything he's done in it too. He's beaten Seb in Q and the Race and has a pole and a win.

Ferrari/Mercedes look genuinely close, I don't think 1 driver in either team is flattering the car.


Raikkonen is driving the second Ferrari. Had he been more competitive, Hamilton would be miles behind in the WDC and Ferrari would be first in the WCC.
When was Raikkonen last win? Do you believe he can win a race against a healthy(car+driver) Vettel/Hamilton/Bottas? It is possible but Bottas has a better chance to do it.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


Different regs and cars right now, though. How relevant is 2014 to now? Not very, I'd say.


Can you think of many examples where regulations changed and it completely changed the dynamic among team mates?

Hamilton - Kovalain, Massa - Raikkonen - 2008 into 2009 it stayed basically the same.

Massa - Alonso, over 2010-2013 on different tyres (bridgestone, pirelli) and cars it stayed basically the same.

1997 into 1998 when the cars became narrower and moved to grooved tyres, the dynamics stayed the same between team mates.

Is there a good example of rules/tyres changing and a dynamic between two drivers really changing much? I know Webber wasn't as good with the EBD but he only lost a tenth or so, he was always behind anyway. The only example I can think of it Patrese being Mansells equal in 1991 and then once the active car was perfected being 0.5-0.8 a lap slower than Mansell in 1992. Generally for me, a change in rules does not make any significant difference. Just look at this season, dynamics are the same between most existing team mates to last year and its one of the the biggest changes to the cars of all time.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Centauri wrote:
Ferrari is the faster car, especially in the races.

If you had Ricciardo / Verstappen in the Ferrari then I believe they could be locking out front rows and achieving even more victories with that machinery.

Hamilton is making the difference and making the Merc look equal or even faster at certain stages.

(I know full-well there are those who would disagree with my opinions. But this is purely guess work based on the evidence that Ricciardo is a superior driver to Vettel).


And Bottas getting a pole in one race and a win in another was what?.


Bottas being better than Raikkonen at this stage of their career.
Kimi had all the tools to claim pole this year in Barcelona( more than Vettel) but failed to do so.

When was Raikkonen last win? and you can not tell me he never had the car to do it.


What's Kimi got to do with it?. He's claiming it's Lewis making the Mercedes appear equal or better than the Ferrari but Bottas has done everything he's done in it too. He's beaten Seb in Q and the Race and has a pole and a win.

Ferrari/Mercedes look genuinely close, I don't think 1 driver in either team is flattering the car.


Raikkonen is driving the second Ferrari. Had he been more competitive, Hamilton would be miles behind in the WDC and Ferrari would be first in the WCC.
When was Raikkonen last win? Do you believe he can win a race against a healthy(car+driver) Vettel/Hamilton/Bottas? It is possible but Bottas has a better chance to do it.


So...?

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:17 pm 
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I think the Mercedes is the outright fastest but the Ferrari car works well in a wider range of conditions, while the Mercedes' pace can vary a lot more with things like temperature changes etc.

It's close though and so really I would tick the "roughly equal" option if it was there.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Where's the option "even stevens"?
I dont think Vettel is any faster than Hamilton, the Ferrari is not inferior to Merc so far, I think they are pretty evenly matched


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:17 pm 
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I think Mercedes still has the faster car.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Too close to call, which is a lovely thing to be able to say

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Ferrari. By small margin, but enough.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:51 pm 
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You know sometimes things are that close it's just too hard to call.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:36 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
There really should be an equal choice in this poll. The cars are so closely matched now that the input of the driver seems to be more important.


Both Hamilton and Vettel are driving extremely well. It seems like strategy and VSC are deciding the race more than the drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Ferrari have the edge on race day, Mercedes have the edge in qualifying.

With more durable tyres and more difficult overtaking, track position becomes more important so I'd say Mercedes have the slight advantage. It's very close though, to be honest I can't recall ever seeing two teams so evenly matched in every race. Normally in this situation with two teams battling for the championship you end up with different circuits and ambient conditions suiting each team better at different times but it ends up averaging itself out over the season to give a close championship.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:42 pm 
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I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


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