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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Brilliant? Childish. This forum has never been a football hooligan assembly and I sure hope it isn't going to start now. But that right there is the first move in that direction.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:15 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
I like Ricciardo, but seriously is he the luckiest driver out there? Every race he has won has been a fluke and he has had the amazing fortune to be the "next best" driver on most of the weekends Mercedes happened to drop the ball in 2014 and 2016. Although Spain went Max's way in 2016 and he was unlucky at Monaco that year too.

This year, he has 7 podiums so far.

Singapore - 2nd. running 5th into turn 1, 3 cars wiped out ahead of him (+3)
Belgium - 3rd. Verstappen engine goes (+1)
Austria - 3rd. Hamilton gearbox penalty (+1)
Baku - 1st. I lost count on how many at least (+5)
Canada - 3rd. Vettel taken out turn 1, Verstappen retires (+2)
Monaco - 3rd. Running 4th, RB split strategy and it puts him on the podium (+1)
Spain - 3rd. Bottas engine goes from third, Max and Kimi out at turn 1 (+3)

I know he doesn't have the car to pull podiums on merit, but he has 7 of them and in none of them did it look likely until something went his way. A lot of it is good race craft and avoiding turn 1 drama but a lot of it is also sheer luck.

If anything Ricciardo has been unlucky that his time in a front running team has coincided with an unprecedented level of dominance from Mercedes.

He's also been very unlucky on the rare occasions he has genuinely had the pace to win.


I also this Ricciardo has been unlucky, but in a different way. He's been lucky with several of his podium finishes, but is he the luckiest driver out there? No. He's had 2 mechanical problems resulting in retirements. He's been taken out by his team mate on another occasion. Then he was looking very strong at the start of qualifying in Britain and then had retire. Add these all into the other luck he has had and you simply can't say Ricciardo has been the luckiest driver out there. He had a huge amount of bad luck in 2015 too. I personally think that when Ricciardo sees a chance to get a unexpectedly good result, it is then that his driving performance is at it's best and at times, possibly better than any other driver. His overtakes always seem to work really well without resulting in contact. That has been the same over the past few years. I also think Ricciardo's cautious starts have often payed off well this year so perhaps he's learnt from that and continued to do that each race. I don't want to blame Verstappen for many of his incidents, but he has been a little too optimistic several times on the first lap and even later in the race. On certain tracks, being as careful as you at the start can pay off better than having a better start than anyone else. Hamilton got away with a good start last race, Verstappen and Kimi didn't. Ricciardo's bad start resulted well though. Being cautious is often a good way to keep out of trouble. This is something that I personally think Bottas has done a good job of most of the time. His starts are rarely that good and he tends to not take many risks on the first lap, but he usually gets the team some very good points in the end.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:30 am 
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mds wrote:
I am not detracting anything from Ricciardo for what happens after that. I am just not willing to agree that Ricciardo would have beaten Verstappen if they had both raced on in an uneventful race.

Mind you, I also am not saying Verstappen would have beaten Ricciardo in all those races.


This is as impartial an opinion as it gets. It's pretty much entirely factual.

Then you're just wasting everyone's time. If you're not trying to argue that Max is doing better, why the heck would you spend so much time telling us he was doing better during the time they could be compared? Isn't that a way of saying you think he was doing better in the races, and therefore would presumably have won?

This whole stupid argument is because everyone thinks you were arguing that he would have won all those races. I'm sure most Verstappen fans think he would have. If that's not what you're saying, this is beyond pointless.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:16 am 
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Exediron wrote:
This whole stupid argument is because everyone thinks you were arguing that he would have won all those races.


Then "everyone" need to work on their reading comprehension. I've laid out a clear and simple point.

From my side I'm arguing against a few arguments being brought forward in this thread, one is the idea that Ricciardo purposely starts slower, another is the idea that he sets his car up for race instead of qualifying, and another is the idea that he is definitively doing better than Max.
I don't understand why you would think this is beyond pointless or stupid.

And I surely do not understand why I'm the one wasting everyone's time when my point has been pretty clear from the start. It's not my fault people have a hard time reading what's in front of them, or that they decide to engage and prove a point they cannot possibly prove. Or that they choose to take offense when all I'm saying is Max is up until they can't be compared anymore and a whole debate spurs from that.
All of that is not on me, but on those that are desparate to prove one of the arguments as laid out above.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:51 am 
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mds wrote:
Nonsense to the highest degree. My position is simple, that during the time we can compare them like for like Max is doing better, until we can't compare them anymore because things keep happening to Verstappen.


So you would also agree that Williams is outperforming the rest of the grid? They are doing the best and quickest pitstops. Once the drivers start racing, we can't compare the teams anymore because that is out of their control?

It's pretty much entirely factual as well.

mds wrote:
Or that they choose to take offense when all I'm saying is Max is up until they can't be compared anymore and a whole debate spurs from that.


Image

Not offended, but I think it's a silly statement made by the Verfappers to keep themselves from lying awake at night. You can't just look at a small moment of an entire race, and make a bold declaration that X is outperforming Y. That was the point I tried to make in my joke post yesterday. It's ludicrous. Motorsport doesn't work like that, hell no sport works like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:20 am 
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Childish indeed bradtheboywonder

I think you know better than that. Just let everybody have their favorite driver. We watch the sport because we like the sport and no need for this behavior.

Ricciardo is a great driver. This topic is not meant to be a topic to talk about one or the other. He has had luck of course, but that is part of the game and does not take anything away from his skills as a driver.

Max is still young, has years to learn more and more and will get better. Last year he stated that he could work more on everything. He has the ability to absorb information and putin into practice. That is a great quality to haveand that is not me saying it but the people that work and have worked with him.

Last year he also said that qualifying is something he would be working on. Ricciardo was the qualifying beast right? Did he suddenly become bad at it? Of course not. The man is still great at what he does. If Max outperforms Daniel in qualifying it's because he is learning. It is all so close, and they are tow great drivers.

It is only a matter of time that we get to see the results of how Max has been doing. It is not yet clear in the races in Sundat but bad luck will go away as long as he keeps doing what he is doing.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:33 am 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Ricciardo was the qualifying beast right? Did he suddenly become bad at it? Of course not. The man is still great at what he does. If Max outperforms Daniel in qualifying it's because he is learning. It is all so close, and they are tow great drivers.

The qualifying beast thing was a total urban legend, built on the fact that he appeared to outperform Vergne in quali but less so in races. When he was Vettel's teammate, it was much closer in quali than in the races. He isn't a qualifying specialist, he's just a quick driver. A real qualifying specialist should be much quicker in quali than in races, and there's never been a real pattern of Dan doing that.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:40 am 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Childish indeed bradtheboywonder

I think you know better than that. Just let everybody have their favorite driver. We watch the sport because we like the sport and no need for this behavior.

Ricciardo is a great driver. This topic is not meant to be a topic to talk about one or the other. He has had luck of course, but that is part of the game and does not take anything away from his skills as a driver.

Max is still young, has years to learn more and more and will get better. Last year he stated that he could work more on everything. He has the ability to absorb information and putin into practice. That is a great quality to haveand that is not me saying it but the people that work and have worked with him.

Last year he also said that qualifying is something he would be working on. Ricciardo was the qualifying beast right? Did he suddenly become bad at it? Of course not. The man is still great at what he does. If Max outperforms Daniel in qualifying it's because he is learning. It is all so close, and they are tow great drivers.

It is only a matter of time that we get to see the results of how Max has been doing. It is not yet clear in the races in Sundat but bad luck will go away as long as he keeps doing what he is doing.


I'm a Verfapper, I like the mongrel he brings to a race. I just don't believe he's outperforming Dan, and think to look at a small moment in a race and ignore the overall picture is... well... silly


Last edited by bradtheboywonder on Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:40 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
mds wrote:
Nonsense to the highest degree. My position is simple, that during the time we can compare them like for like Max is doing better, until we can't compare them anymore because things keep happening to Verstappen.


So you would also agree that Williams is outperforming the rest of the grid? They are doing the best and quickest pitstops. Once the drivers start racing, we can't compare the teams anymore because that is out of their control?

It's pretty much entirely factual as well.


I would say they are outperforming the other teams in terms of pit stops. You would disagree with that?

Quote:
Or that they choose to take offense when all I'm saying is Max is up until they can't be compared anymore and a whole debate spurs from that.
Image

Not offended, but I think it's a silly statement made by the Verfappers to keep themselves from lying awake at night. You can't just look at a small moment of an entire race, and make a bold declaration that X is outperforming Y.


I can 100% say that Verstappen is outperforming Ricciardo in qualifying and that he tends to run ahead in races up until something out of his control (most of the time anyway) happens.
I have made no more statements than that.

Apparently, you do not agree with that or take offense to it to the point it needs to be argued against heavily. I just do not understand why.

And for all you labeling me as a fan that needs to make up stories to be able to sleep at night: yeah, I can easily turn that around to reflect your resistance to a pretty non-controversial point of view upon your driver preference and possible insecurities. I just choose to not descend to that kind of low blows.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:58 am 
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mds wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
mds wrote:
Nonsense to the highest degree. My position is simple, that during the time we can compare them like for like Max is doing better, until we can't compare them anymore because things keep happening to Verstappen.


So you would also agree that Williams is outperforming the rest of the grid? They are doing the best and quickest pitstops. Once the drivers start racing, we can't compare the teams anymore because that is out of their control?

It's pretty much entirely factual as well.


I would say they are outperforming the other teams in terms of pit stops. You would disagree with that?

Quote:
Or that they choose to take offense when all I'm saying is Max is up until they can't be compared anymore and a whole debate spurs from that.
Image

Not offended, but I think it's a silly statement made by the Verfappers to keep themselves from lying awake at night. You can't just look at a small moment of an entire race, and make a bold declaration that X is outperforming Y.


I can 100% say that Verstappen is outperforming Ricciardo in qualifying and that he tends to run ahead in races up until something out of his control (most of the time anyway) happens.
I have made no more statements than that.

Apparently, you do not agree with that or take offense to it to the point it needs to be argued against heavily. I just do not understand why.

And for all you labeling me as a fan that needs to make up stories to be able to sleep at night: yeah, I can easily turn that around to reflect your resistance to a pretty non-controversial point of view upon your driver preference and possible insecurities. I just choose to not descend to that kind of low blows.


Gotta agree here.
But for a lot of bad luck Max would be having a stellar season.
We can only speculate as to whether he'd be beating Danny in the races, I reckon he would, but that's just a guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:00 am 
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mds wrote:
Brilliant? Childish. This forum has never been a football hooligan assembly and I sure hope it isn't going to start now. But that right there is the first move in that direction.

Heh I see that it does the job :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:05 am 
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Quote:
I can 100% say that Verstappen is outperforming Ricciardo in qualifying and that he tends to run ahead in races up until something out of his control (most of the time anyway) happens.
I have made no more statements than that.


And that I can agree with. What I disagree with are those who use that logic, and then say that Max is outperforming Dan during the races, when he is having issues finishing races.

Thank you MDS, you're off the list


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:11 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Quote:
I can 100% say that Verstappen is outperforming Ricciardo in qualifying and that he tends to run ahead in races up until something out of his control (most of the time anyway) happens.
I have made no more statements than that.


And that I can agree with. What I disagree with are those who use that logic, and then say that Max is outperforming Dan during the races, when he is having issues finishing races.


That's fair enough, and in any case Ricciardo is capitalizing like a champ.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:50 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
lamo wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Daniel's showing was beyond poor.

He's quite the loudmouth about taking oportunities, but yesterday for me it was just a bad showing from him.
Terrible. Fancy nursing a gearbox issue and finishing second to a Mercedes that was able to spread its wings thanks to the conditions - beating another Mercedes to boot (albeit one with a rather parched driver thanks to his drinks system failing him).
Between laps 4-10 in between the first two SC's, Hamilton did build a 5.2 second lead on him in 6 racing laps. That was before his gearbox issue. Wet weather isn't Ricciardo's strongest point although the two team mates who out shone him are rain masters - Vettel and Max but Vergne was also better too. Kyvat was also much closer to DR in the wet than the dry.
I'm not arguing with that. The use of the words, 'beyond poor,' to describe Riccardo's race performance, however, pretty much invited a facetious response as far as I'm concerned.


Hey, if the problem was real, than I put my hand up and say I was wrong. It just seemed like a good time to eat the mercs and he didn't manage.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:58 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
lamo wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Daniel's showing was beyond poor.

He's quite the loudmouth about taking oportunities, but yesterday for me it was just a bad showing from him.
Terrible. Fancy nursing a gearbox issue and finishing second to a Mercedes that was able to spread its wings thanks to the conditions - beating another Mercedes to boot (albeit one with a rather parched driver thanks to his drinks system failing him).
Between laps 4-10 in between the first two SC's, Hamilton did build a 5.2 second lead on him in 6 racing laps. That was before his gearbox issue. Wet weather isn't Ricciardo's strongest point although the two team mates who out shone him are rain masters - Vettel and Max but Vergne was also better too. Kyvat was also much closer to DR in the wet than the dry.
I'm not arguing with that. The use of the words, 'beyond poor,' to describe Riccardo's race performance, however, pretty much invited a facetious response as far as I'm concerned.
Hey, if the problem was real, than I put my hand up and say I was wrong. It just seemed like a good time to eat the mercs and he didn't manage.
No problem... and excuse the facetiousness earlier.
It's also worth nothing that the conditions played to Hamilton - apparently the wets / inters run to a larger diameter and therefore lift the floor of the car a little; it seems that the Mercedes copes better with this than other cars. Couple that with history suggesting that Hamilton is one of the best wet-weather drivers on the current grid and the supposed performance advantage of RB / Riccardo in Singapore is largely, if not completely, mitigated.
Yes, Ric didn't take advantage of the situation. I'm arguing that circumstances, as opposed to the driver himself, played the primary role in that.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Max out qualified Dan by 0.0xx last race and its 1 to Max. Regardless whether its by 0.9 or .00001 its still 1 to Max. Same should be done for races Dan has finished ahead more than Max whether thats due to dmg, setup or by 1sec.

Nobody cares about the details at the end of the day. They both racing to be next inline for a wdc.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:52 pm 
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red_alert wrote:
Max out qualified Dan by 0.0xx last race and its 1 to Max. Regardless whether its by 0.9 or .00001 its still 1 to Max. Same should be done for races Dan has finished ahead more than Max whether thats due to dmg, setup or by 1sec.

Nobody cares about the details at the end of the day. They both racing to be next inline for a wdc.


If Ricciardo breaks down in Q1 and Max performs badly and gets knocked out in Q2 I don't consider that in Max's favour.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:17 pm 
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red_alert wrote:
Max out qualified Dan by 0.0xx last race and its 1 to Max. Regardless whether its by 0.9 or .00001 its still 1 to Max. Same should be done for races Dan has finished ahead more than Max whether thats due to dmg, setup or by 1sec.

Nobody cares about the details at the end of the day. They both racing to be next inline for a wdc.

I think people do care about the details, otherwise we'd just look at the stats and there would be no discussion.

I do think Max is quicker than dan, but OTOH I consider 0.0xx to be a next to negligible difference and wouldn't use it as evidence of any superiority


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:46 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Quote:
I can 100% say that Verstappen is outperforming Ricciardo in qualifying and that he tends to run ahead in races up until something out of his control (most of the time anyway) happens.
I have made no more statements than that.


And that I can agree with. What I disagree with are those who use that logic, and then say that Max is outperforming Dan during the races, when he is having issues finishing races.

Thank you MDS, you're off the list

I think it has gotten a bit more complicated than it was when this thread was first created. At that point, Max seemed stronger both in qualifying and the races. At this current point, he has made some errors that have had dire consequences on race day. So I think it's a bit cloudy.

Ricciardo is very similar to Jenson Button for me but with greater single lap pace. He's very heady and he thinks his way through the races; preferring strategies that bring him to life at the end of the race. His patience and racecraft are very impressive and he was able to consistently match or surpass Vettel on pace for that brief time that they were teammates. It seems that Max has another gear though that Daniel can't quite match.

When one of these two leaves to go to another team, this forum will come alive! We'll finally be able to connect all the dots in terms of how the drivers compare (especially if one of them goes to Mercedes).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
When one of these two leaves to go to another team, this forum will come alive! We'll finally be able to connect all the dots in terms of how the drivers compare (especially if one of them goes to Mercedes).


We already know, so far second season Daniel is beating Max again. This is motorsports and that's the reality.

Max has the talent and the speed, he just needs to calm down with incidents, and start focusing on a clean start and getting to the finish (Unless it's out of his control) Daniel is much wiser in that sense, but Max is very young and should improve, and go on to win titles.

Next season Max has to beat Dan, regardless of reliability, because it may well be their last season together and if he don't it will be a 3-0 to Daniel in beating max while they was team mates. That's how it will be seen, and that's the factual events.

It's all speculating about "if this or that" it's not factual, no one here is a fortune teller and cannot predict the actual events that "may have happened" "if this and that"


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
When one of these two leaves to go to another team, this forum will come alive! We'll finally be able to connect all the dots in terms of how the drivers compare (especially if one of them goes to Mercedes).


We already know, so far second season Daniel is beating Max again. This is motorsports and that's the reality.

Max has the talent and the speed, he just needs to calm down with incidents, and start focusing on a clean start and getting to the finish (Unless it's out of his control) Daniel is much wiser in that sense, but Max is very young and should improve, and go on to win titles.

Next season Max has to beat Dan, regardless of reliability, because it may well be their last season together and if he don't it will be a 3-0 to Daniel in beating max while they was team mates. That's how it will be seen, and that's the factual events.

It's all speculating about "if this or that" it's not factual, no one here is a fortune teller and cannot predict the actual events that "may have happened" "if this and that"

I'm not sure that's the case, really. I'm pretty sure everybody knows Max has not had the rub of the green this year and the points aren't a true reflection of performance. I've seen no signs his stock has dropped; on the contrary, if anything it's gone up since last year as he's looked very competitive when his equipment hasn't let him down


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:22 pm 
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His stock has dropped a little for me when I see how he's faring against Max. Of course, it could be that Max is simply a superstar and I'm also open to the idea that he's just not having the best year. He's still a good driver, although unlike others I'm not always a fan of his overtaking style, which seems to rely largely on others diving out of the way to avoid coming together, but I doubt that opinion will be popular!

I'd put him behind Alonso and just behind Vettel and Hamilton


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
His stock has dropped a little for me when I see how he's faring against Max. Of course, it could be that Max is simply a superstar and I'm also open to the idea that he's just not having the best year. He's still a good driver, although unlike others I'm not always a fan of his overtaking style, which seems to rely largely on others diving out of the way to avoid coming together, but I doubt that opinion will be popular!

I'd put him behind Alonso and just behind Vettel and Hamilton


I'm a fan of his but sometimes his overtaking does make you hold your breath for being so far back but he's so good on the brakes that he does pull it off far more often than not but yeah those kind of moves do tend to rely on some kindness and awareness from the guys he's doing it too.

Pretty special when it comes off though. The ones on Bottas last year and Kimi this year were special and relied on some kindness but I think the one in Baku where he got like 3 of them at the re-start and which set up his win was just pure skill, it was a beauty.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
His stock has dropped a little for me when I see how he's faring against Max. Of course, it could be that Max is simply a superstar and I'm also open to the idea that he's just not having the best year. He's still a good driver, although unlike others I'm not always a fan of his overtaking style, which seems to rely largely on others diving out of the way to avoid coming together, but I doubt that opinion will be popular!

I'd put him behind Alonso and just behind Vettel and Hamilton


I'm a fan of his but sometimes his overtaking does make you hold your breath for being so far back but he's so good on the brakes that he does pull it off far more often than not but yeah those kind of moves do tend to rely on some kindness and awareness from the guys he's doing it too.

Pretty special when it comes off though. The ones on Bottas last year and Kimi this year were special and relied on some kindness but I think the one in Baku where he got like 3 of them at the re-start and which set up his win was just pure skill, it was a beauty.

Yes they can be pretty spectacular, to be fair. But sometimes I do think they cross the line and it's only down to the other guy that they don't end in tears. He's not averse to playing bumper cars

All in all do think he's one of the best drivers out there, though. Bottom line is he gets results


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
His stock has dropped a little for me when I see how he's faring against Max. Of course, it could be that Max is simply a superstar and I'm also open to the idea that he's just not having the best year. He's still a good driver, although unlike others I'm not always a fan of his overtaking style, which seems to rely largely on others diving out of the way to avoid coming together, but I doubt that opinion will be popular!

I'd put him behind Alonso and just behind Vettel and Hamilton


I'm a fan of his but sometimes his overtaking does make you hold your breath for being so far back but he's so good on the brakes that he does pull it off far more often than not but yeah those kind of moves do tend to rely on some kindness and awareness from the guys he's doing it too.

Pretty special when it comes off though. The ones on Bottas last year and Kimi this year were special and relied on some kindness but I think the one in Baku where he got like 3 of them at the re-start and which set up his win was just pure skill, it was a beauty.


I thought the pass Ricciardo did on Bottas in Italy last year did look really good, but as you say, that did look like it heavily relied on Bottas giving him space. I don't think Bottas had the right to move over as much as he did and it could have potentially gone like Verstappen's attempt on Massa at that very corner did this year. Massa was harsh, but fair. Bottas could have done the same, but it could have resulted in damage to himself.

A bit of luck is involved, but it seems that Ricciardo is slightly better than Verstappen at making spectacular overtakes work every time. A couple of Verstapen's attempts at Italy were messy.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:23 pm 
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F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......


If we are talking about being more successful I agree with you. We are talking about being better.

I can only assume you consider Vettel superior to Senna and Rosberg better than Stirling Moss.

I also assume you think Kvyat performed batter than Ricciardo in 2015?
The "He's ahead in the championship" argument is so base it's absurd. The sport is far more complex than that.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:17 am 
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The way he overtook kimi this year and Bottas last year are almost carbon copies of each other. The thing that is even more amazing is that there was no hint of a lockup or anything, they didn't look dramatic, and in both cases he seemed to catch his opponent napping. That shows a lot of craft to be able to repeat the same move successfully on different drivers! He's also had some other memorable passes, such as the one on Vettel at Monza 14' and on Hamilton at Hungary 14'. Personally I think the guy is as crafty as Alonso when it comes to overtaking. He may not have the best raw pace, as Max has put him in his mirrors so often this year, but he is one of the best racers I've ever seen.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:29 am 
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Like everything in life, such as football, politics, F1, etc., your personal truth all depends on your point of view and your inherent biases.

With that in mind I think this somewhat pointless thread can be summed up as such:

Riccionados (aka Aussies):
Scoreboard! RIC is currently scoring points at better than 2.3:1 - Nothing else matters.

Verfappers:
Max has had Webber-esque levels of luck this year. With a reliable car, he'll be untouchable.

Everyone else:
Max's season is shot for this year. Roll on next year and we'll see if he develops into the 2nd coming of Senna, or not.

RIC has had a good year and managed to compile a good number of points in an inferior car. It'd be good to see him in a Ferrari or Merc to see if can mix it with VET, HAM & VER at the pointy end of a championship.

Cheers
Noel


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 am 
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F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......

It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:29 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......

It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


To put it very blut: the way things at RBR are and have been going, both Dan and Max are probably racing mostly to get themselves in the spotlights for other teams where they will be able to fight for a WDC again. Both of them are not interested in being a distant third or fourth in the WDC standings.

A Ferrari or Mercedes seat is what they probably want to land if RBR still isn't there next year (which I feel they won't), and despite Dan leading by a lot in the WDC I am not sure at all at this point that he has done enough to be the one to get first pick of seats over Max. People can feel free to disagree with this.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:18 am 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......

It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


To put it very blut: the way things at RBR are and have been going, both Dan and Max are probably racing mostly to get themselves in the spotlights for other teams where they will be able to fight for a WDC again. Both of them are not interested in being a distant third or fourth in the WDC standings.

A Ferrari or Mercedes seat is what they probably want to land if RBR still isn't there next year (which I feel they won't), and despite Dan leading by a lot in the WDC I am not sure at all at this point that he has done enough to be the one to get first pick of seats over Max. People can feel free to disagree with this.

At the moment, Max still has the 'mad Max' moniker hanging over his head - and I can't see either Merc. or Ferrari teaming him with Lewis or Seb.

But then again, even though Dan appears to be a more 'stable' driver - I can't see Merc. or Ferrari looking for anything other than a good (but not likely to threaten their star drivers too often) driver either.

But then again :) what do I know - as I was sure that after '07 Mclaren would never employ Alonso again :lol: !


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:33 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......

It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


To put it very blut: the way things at RBR are and have been going, both Dan and Max are probably racing mostly to get themselves in the spotlights for other teams where they will be able to fight for a WDC again. Both of them are not interested in being a distant third or fourth in the WDC standings.

A Ferrari or Mercedes seat is what they probably want to land if RBR still isn't there next year (which I feel they won't), and despite Dan leading by a lot in the WDC I am not sure at all at this point that he has done enough to be the one to get first pick of seats over Max. People can feel free to disagree with this.

At the moment, Max still has the 'mad Max' moniker hanging over his head - and I can't see either Merc. or Ferrari teaming him with Lewis or Seb.

But then again, even though Dan appears to be a more 'stable' driver - I can't see Merc. or Ferrari looking for anything other than a good (but not likely to threaten their star drivers too often) driver either.

But then again :) what do I know - as I was sure that after '07 Mclaren would never employ Alonso again :lol: !


You could be right. It'll all play out next year as a lot of drivers are out of contract by the end of 2018 or have only 1-year contracts. All of Verstappen, Ricciardo, Bottas and Raikkonen do not have a contract beyond 2019.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:45 am 
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mds wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


To put it very blut: the way things at RBR are and have been going, both Dan and Max are probably racing mostly to get themselves in the spotlights for other teams where they will be able to fight for a WDC again. Both of them are not interested in being a distant third or fourth in the WDC standings.

A Ferrari or Mercedes seat is what they probably want to land if RBR still isn't there next year (which I feel they won't), and despite Dan leading by a lot in the WDC I am not sure at all at this point that he has done enough to be the one to get first pick of seats over Max. People can feel free to disagree with this.

At the moment, Max still has the 'mad Max' moniker hanging over his head - and I can't see either Merc. or Ferrari teaming him with Lewis or Seb.

But then again, even though Dan appears to be a more 'stable' driver - I can't see Merc. or Ferrari looking for anything other than a good (but not likely to threaten their star drivers too often) driver either.

But then again :) what do I know - as I was sure that after '07 Mclaren would never employ Alonso again :lol: !


You could be right. It'll all play out next year as a lot of drivers are out of contract by the end of 2018 or have only 1-year contracts. All of Verstappen, Ricciardo, Bottas and Raikkonen do not have a contract beyond 2019.

If Kimi gets extended again I'll be absolutely amazed. I strongly suspect his latest contract was to give Ferrari the opportunity to sign e.g. one of the Red Bull drivers for 2019 (and this is likely the case with Bottas, too). If it's true that Red Bull may be forced to give up Renault power and take on Honda, and assuming Honda doesn't make great strides next year, I see both leaving, most likely one for Merc and one for Ferrari


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:49 am 
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Was anyone else on the forum in the late 00s? Ricciardo/Verstappen is starting to remind me of the endless arguments RE Kubica/Heidfeld.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:00 am 
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Zoue wrote:
If Kimi gets extended again I'll be absolutely amazed. I strongly suspect his latest contract was to give Ferrari the opportunity to sign e.g. one of the Red Bull drivers for 2019 (and this is likely the case with Bottas, too). If it's true that Red Bull may be forced to give up Renault power and take on Honda, and assuming Honda doesn't make great strides next year, I see both leaving, most likely one for Merc and one for Ferrari


This could happen, but one big caveat: although I pretty much hinted at this in my previous reply, I am still in doubt about whether both Ferrari and Mercedes will want to pair Vettel and Hamilton to a driver that could genuinely rival them. We know Ferrari's stance about this. Given what happened at Mercedes between Hamilton and Rosberg, and their subsequent hiring of Bottas (solid pair of hands, but not expected to trouble Hamilton), it's possible they will be going the same route.

If only one of them opens up a seat for either of the RBR drivers, then it will be interesting to see who they pick and who will pretty much be forced to stay at RBR. Then again there could be other really good seats by then. Renault? McLaren? RBR itself?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:03 am 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If Kimi gets extended again I'll be absolutely amazed. I strongly suspect his latest contract was to give Ferrari the opportunity to sign e.g. one of the Red Bull drivers for 2019 (and this is likely the case with Bottas, too). If it's true that Red Bull may be forced to give up Renault power and take on Honda, and assuming Honda doesn't make great strides next year, I see both leaving, most likely one for Merc and one for Ferrari


This could happen, but one big caveat: although I pretty much hinted at this in my previous reply, I am still in doubt about whether both Ferrari and Mercedes will want to pair Vettel and Hamilton to a driver that could genuinely rival them. We know Ferrari's stance about this. Given what happened at Mercedes between Hamilton and Rosberg, and their subsequent hiring of Bottas (solid pair of hands, but not expected to trouble Hamilton), it's possible they will be going the same route.

If only one of them opens up a seat for either of the RBR drivers, then it will be interesting to see who they pick and who will pretty much be forced to stay at RBR. Then again there could be other really good seats by then. Renault? McLaren? RBR itself?


I think given the choice Merc would pick Verstappen and Ferrari Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:37 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1nut wrote:
Boy is this a 9 page train-wreck: Ricardo is 4th in F1 Championship points and Verstappen is 6th, nearly 100 points behind Ricardo; but yet some folks think he is doing the better of the two team-mates........... :lol:

If you don't make it to the checker'd flag no matter how well ya did in the race - it don't count for nothing IMHO and only fools think otherwise when it comes to racing, in any form, which was well noted on the first page by macaw here:

macaw wrote:
Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves


:thumbup: Well stated and IMHO the thread should have stopped with your very valid comment, wish I could get the time back I spent reading this drivel.......

It's relevant when working out the scores and Championship tables, but irrelevant when determining who is the better driver. I'm surprised you are even on a forum with am attitude like that, since what is the purpose of any debate or poll when you just have to point to the Tables for your answer?

As has been pointed out, the sport is vastly more complex than that. I'm happy to be one of the fools who understands that


To put it very blut: the way things at RBR are and have been going, both Dan and Max are probably racing mostly to get themselves in the spotlights for other teams where they will be able to fight for a WDC again. Both of them are not interested in being a distant third or fourth in the WDC standings.

A Ferrari or Mercedes seat is what they probably want to land if RBR still isn't there next year (which I feel they won't), and despite Dan leading by a lot in the WDC I am not sure at all at this point that he has done enough to be the one to get first pick of seats over Max. People can feel free to disagree with this.

At the moment, Max still has the 'mad Max' moniker hanging over his head - and I can't see either Merc. or Ferrari teaming him with Lewis or Seb.

But then again, even though Dan appears to be a more 'stable' driver - I can't see Merc. or Ferrari looking for anything other than a good (but not likely to threaten their star drivers too often) driver either.

But then again :) what do I know - as I was sure that after '07 Mclaren would never employ Alonso again :lol: !

I can't be sure on Ferrari but I don't think Merc would hesitate to snap up an available Verstappen

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:39 am 
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kleefton wrote:
The way he overtook kimi this year and Bottas last year are almost carbon copies of each other. The thing that is even more amazing is that there was no hint of a lockup or anything, they didn't look dramatic, and in both cases he seemed to catch his opponent napping. That shows a lot of craft to be able to repeat the same move successfully on different drivers! He's also had some other memorable passes, such as the one on Vettel at Monza 14' and on Hamilton at Hungary 14'. Personally I think the guy is as crafty as Alonso when it comes to overtaking. He may not have the best raw pace, as Max has put him in his mirrors so often this year, but he is one of the best racers I've ever seen.

He replicated that one on Perez this year too

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:07 am 
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You know, everyone's talking Merc & Ferrari (including me), but by 2019 we shouldn't be counting out Honda (with Red Bull) or Renault.

Before someone shouts, "Guards, seize him!", Honda have lost some serious face with the McLaren debacle and I can't help but think that going down a level with Torro Rosso will give them the space they need to develop their power unit. Who knows, when Renault dump Red Bull, Honda may give them the power they need to compete at the front.

As for Renault, it's pretty clear that they're after a top driver for 2019/20, to do that they need both a great chassis and a good donk. As a major manufacturer they have the resources to (maybe) make that happen.

Bottom line, both RIC and VER each have a serious decision to make in mid 2018 and 2019 respectively.

It'd be beyond ironic if they both left for Merc and Ferrari only for Carlos Sainz to take out the championship in a Red Bull Honda, or Hulkenberg in a Renault.

Cheers,
Noel


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