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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:21 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.


Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.


Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.
Precisely.

Verstappen has been in control of the pace and as a result been on the better strategy which is usually given to the better/faster of the 2 drivers for every team. in 2016 max made a few mistakes that cost him, which while loses him brownie points, in between those mistakes he drove better than Ricciardo. Where they finished come the end of races only shows that one driver made it to the end. It does not say where each driver was relative to his teammate during races. Ricciardo had 3 really impressive races that I recall in 2016 whereas Verstappen enjoyed well more than a handful of them, regardless of him crashing out. At Brazil in particular he was outpacing everyone simply because he was able to figure out a better line and throttle/brake control than anyone else and that made him feel as though he could push just that much more, but once he did he spun and was extremely fortunate he didn't end up in the wall.

Ricciardo is an excellent driver and the ONLY thing I dislike about him in ANY capacity is his habitual over ambitious dive bombs down the inside of drivers which forces them to take evasive action which is what has kept many of those incidents from ending in retirements for both drivers.

When both drivers crossed the line (since Spain) in 2016, this is how it broke down.

Spain – Verstappen crossed the checkered flag some 43+ seconds ahead of Ricciardo in his very first race in the car, having never driven it before that Friday's FP1

Canada – Verstappen finished some 10 seconds ahead… Then Europe Max finished 1 second behind Ricciardo

Europe – Verstappen finished 1.5 seconds behind Ricciardo

Austria – Verstappen finished 25 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Silverstone – Verstappen finished 18 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Hungary – Ricciardo finished 21 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Germany – Ricciardo finished 6.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Belgium – Ricciardo finished 56 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Italy – Ricciardo finished 9 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Singapore – Ricciardo finished 70 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Malaysia – Ricciardo finished 2.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Japan – Verstappen finished 27 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Mexico – Ricciardo finished .5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Brazil – Verstappen finished 43 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Abu Dhabi – Verstappen finished 3.5 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo


And less we forget that Verstappen made overtakes than anyone which delves further into him having the upper hand between the Red Bull Drivers. The points tally at the end of the year mean little here, especially if you consider Verstappen ran a few races in the Toro Rosso before moving to the senior team.
Overall, I have to give the kid the nod for finishing ahead of the guy the team put all their eggs in the basket for, more often. It's not by an absurd margin, but if you factor in how nothing of the car was built around him and the fact he'd never even sat in it before FP1 in Spain, what he accomplished over the remainder of the season is seriously impressive.

And while Qualifying doesn't mean the world, even that shows that the kid has the upper hand on Ricciardo. If Ricciardo out-qualified Verstappen over the season and Verstappen came out on top when both cars finished, I think that is indicative of which driver was better. Sure he made mistakes when pushing, but he's young and still learning and improving and that should be a brow raising proposition for Ricciardo fans because it wont be long until Verstappen is made the defacto #1 it RBR, unless they ship him off to Ferrari.

So I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the Verstappen had the edge over Ricciardo comfortably outside of Monaco.


So you've just shown it's 8/7 to Ricciardo? You've put Baku in the wrong colour.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Without looking at any stats i always felt Max has been the faster driver.
But only just.
Not to take away anything away from Dan RBR do have the most competitive driver lineup.
You have to appreciate RBR for that


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Yes, Max has his share of disappointments this year but that is racing.

The most important thing for me is that he is still improving and that the team is happy with how he is performing.

He is a talented driver, no doubt about that, and Horner said he is improving so fast and performing even better then last year.

The prizes are being given to those who finish top 3 at the end of a race that is very true and we see Ricciardo on the podium a lot the past few races. He is of course a good driver and I am glad for him to be celebrating on the podium.

I like Daniel from what I can see. I think he is a great guy and he may be the best team mate for Max at the moment. Red Bull may be the best team for him too right now. They do a lot of advertising and a few weeks ago here in the Netherlands they were there with the team to give Max the car to drive for a anual racing weekend.

They put in the time, the money but they also know it's worth it.
Red Bull knows that Max sells tickets and every year it's attracting more people just to see Max.

In Spa a tribune with seats for Max fans was arranged that sold out within minutes. Then they added more seats that sold out again as fast. In Austria this year there also will be a tribune for fans and for Ricciardo too I believe.

Os Max out performing Ricciardo? In his own words: Yes.

They have a lot of data at Red Bull. Horner said he drove evreybody's record to trashes, of all the drivers that were in that system. They know a lot more than we do and they know what they have with these two drivers.

The thing is that with Max everything goes to the extreme. People will say thay he has the time since he is just 19 years old but he doesn't see it like that, and his management doesn't see it like that.

They put pressure on Red Bull to choose and to show that they want him. If they want him, which they do, they have to deliver the car they promised. No more "your time will come" because that's what makes you loose Max. The Verstappen family is very talented but also very persistent. They have to back him up by showing he is their man.

For Max only the results count. He knows no fear, has no admiration for any of his fellow drivers and he knows he can do it now and wants it now. This is what sets him apart from the others be it right or wrong.

He knows he is better then Ricciardo, and he knows he is better than anyone else on the grid even if he's right or wrong but I feel he very much might be already right now.

He will go on until he has what he came for, that World Title. And if he has to crush some ego's along the way, so be it.

He truly is a nice guy who has all the time for his fans. With his helmet on he's something else and won't stop.

I like Ricciardo and he might be ahead in points this year but it is clear that there is no stopping the learning curve Max is going through now.

(Excuse my spelling. English is not my first language and I am typing this on a small screen ;) )


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.


Of course it's hyperbole if you think outside Monaco Max has been comfortably ahead since they've been partnered. He was out-qualified over those 17 races last year, finished behind more often, had less podiums and scored less points.

This year Max has looked better though, he's up 5-3(2 really, China shouldn't count) in Qualy and has been ahead and quicker in most races before his troubles hit.

But even this year it's been overblown how badly Dan is doing, they've had two full races where they both finished and in China Max looked considerably quicker in the first half and Dan in the second half and the gap at the flag was 0.9s. In Monaco Dan didn't fudge his pit stop and made the over cut work with some rapid laps and the gap at the flag was 2.9s

1-1 and both close at the flag and that's it as far as facts go, everything else is hypothetical based on a handful of laps each race.


Hang on... with regards to last year. Max was dropped into a car he had never driven in a new team, mid season with no testing. Compared to a settled Ricciardo. That is not really a fair comparison and Max still held his own.

Yes Ricciardo did out qualify Max, but the score went like this....
5-0
5-1
7-1
7-2
9-2
9-4
10-4
10-6
11-6

Ricciardo was 9-2 up and from that point on lost to Max 4-2 over the last 6 races. Max got stronger and stronger after just being dropped into a car mid season. He has continued were he left off in 2016. His race pace was up with Ricciardo from day 1 and improved through the year generally.

I actually don't like Max and a bit of a Ricciardo fan but that is the way it is unfortunately.
Precisely.

Verstappen has been in control of the pace and as a result been on the better strategy which is usually given to the better/faster of the 2 drivers for every team. in 2016 max made a few mistakes that cost him, which while loses him brownie points, in between those mistakes he drove better than Ricciardo. Where they finished come the end of races only shows that one driver made it to the end. It does not say where each driver was relative to his teammate during races. Ricciardo had 3 really impressive races that I recall in 2016 whereas Verstappen enjoyed well more than a handful of them, regardless of him crashing out. At Brazil in particular he was outpacing everyone simply because he was able to figure out a better line and throttle/brake control than anyone else and that made him feel as though he could push just that much more, but once he did he spun and was extremely fortunate he didn't end up in the wall.

Ricciardo is an excellent driver and the ONLY thing I dislike about him in ANY capacity is his habitual over ambitious dive bombs down the inside of drivers which forces them to take evasive action which is what has kept many of those incidents from ending in retirements for both drivers.

When both drivers crossed the line (since Spain) in 2016, this is how it broke down.

Spain – Verstappen crossed the checkered flag some 43+ seconds ahead of Ricciardo in his very first race in the car, having never driven it before that Friday's FP1

Canada – Verstappen finished some 10 seconds ahead… Then Europe Max finished 1 second behind Ricciardo

Europe – Verstappen finished 1.5 seconds behind Ricciardo

Austria – Verstappen finished 25 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Silverstone – Verstappen finished 18 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Hungary – Ricciardo finished 21 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Germany – Ricciardo finished 6.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Belgium – Ricciardo finished 56 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Italy – Ricciardo finished 9 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Singapore – Ricciardo finished 70 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Malaysia – Ricciardo finished 2.5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Japan – Verstappen finished 27 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Mexico – Ricciardo finished .5 seconds ahead of Verstappen

Brazil – Verstappen finished 43 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo

Abu Dhabi – Verstappen finished 3.5 Seconds ahead of Ricciardo


And less we forget that Verstappen made overtakes than anyone which delves further into him having the upper hand between the Red Bull Drivers. The points tally at the end of the year mean little here, especially if you consider Verstappen ran a few races in the Toro Rosso before moving to the senior team.
Overall, I have to give the kid the nod for finishing ahead of the guy the team put all their eggs in the basket for, more often. It's not by an absurd margin, but if you factor in how nothing of the car was built around him and the fact he'd never even sat in it before FP1 in Spain, what he accomplished over the remainder of the season is seriously impressive.

And while Qualifying doesn't mean the world, even that shows that the kid has the upper hand on Ricciardo. If Ricciardo out-qualified Verstappen over the season and Verstappen came out on top when both cars finished, I think that is indicative of which driver was better. Sure he made mistakes when pushing, but he's young and still learning and improving and that should be a brow raising proposition for Ricciardo fans because it wont be long until Verstappen is made the defacto #1 it RBR, unless they ship him off to Ferrari.

So I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the Verstappen had the edge over Ricciardo comfortably outside of Monaco.


So you've just shown it's 8/7 to Ricciardo? You've put Baku in the wrong colour.

You are correct! My mistake. :blush:

I started writing this yesterday and was int he middle of formatting and applying colors when I had to go teach a few people some things and then ran out of time.
I actually forgot I was writing this until I went online today, then out internet went down and I formatted quickly and sent. Missed that one but still Max really impressed me last year and he was in front of Dan a ton.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:32 am 
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Interesting and related stat I've just stumbled across in an article in the news here in Australia about the whole Max vs Daniel fight

"Red Bull has completed the fewest laps of any team this year with 685, compared to Force India’s leading tally of 956, with Verstappen joking that at least his car will be reliable when he does a simulator session this week"

I would have assumed that dubious position would have gone to McLaren, guess that shows how much media attention can affect the perspective of things

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:13 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
Interesting and related stat I've just stumbled across in an article in the news here in Australia about the whole Max vs Daniel fight

"Red Bull has completed the fewest laps of any team this year with 685, compared to Force India’s leading tally of 956, with Verstappen joking that at least his car will be reliable when he does a simulator session this week"

I would have assumed that dubious position would have gone to McLaren, guess that shows how much media attention can affect the perspective of things

I was also surprised to read that; I assume it's because McLaren usually retires later in the race.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:41 am 
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Max has undoubtedly been the less lucky of the pair so far this year. While I've enjoyed seeing Ricciardo have the chance to score some solid results, Verstappen's retirement in Baku even had me feeling a little sorry for him. Frustratingly we've not had so many battles with the pair side-by-side, but I'm looking forward to a few over the next few years. Verstappen is always quick in the early stages of the race - perhaps one of the quickest even with the slower Red Bull - while Ricciardo seems a lot more cerebral in his driving. Ricciardo has never been the gung-ho off the line type, but his race pace has historically been exceptionally good. He's also very good with strategy, and I'll use Monaco this year as just one example. He was behind Max for the first handful of laps and then dropped back to about three seconds to give a chance for the jump in the pits. This wasn't nearly the first time he's done something similar and it often pays off.

One thing that has been surprising is qualifying - Verstappen has really stepped up a bit this year. Vettel beat Webber, who was no slouch on Saturday, and Ricciardo beat Vettel. Without looking at figures I suspect Verstappen is currently beating Ricciardo this year as well. His starts are also pretty impressive - he's not afraid of throwing his car up the inside at T1. This is what gives him such a good reputation, I think. At the most exciting point of the race Verstappen often makes the biggest moves and that sticks in the audience's minds. He's been a touch lucky in these situations since joining Red Bull - many times two drivers he's up against have pushed each other off and Max has been there to scoop up the place. But credit to him, he wouldn't have taken the spot if he'd not put himself in the position in the first place.

Overall I'd say the pair have been very close. Based on first impressions it might even lean to Verstappen with the advantage so far, but Ricciardo is less of a flashy driver and a lot more of a considered, tactical one. Without wanting to use an obvious cliche (and I really don't want to use it, but I will) but Max could be compared to Senna while Daniel could be a Prost. Both very talented drivers with evidence to back up that claim, but both quite different drivers.

It will be interesting to see how Max goes on if his bad luck with mechanical issues persists. He's only been at the team a short while and he's already getting fairly mouthy regarding retirements. A few more could tip him over the edge and at 19-years-old he might say or do some things which won't endear him to the squad. Ricciardo is already immensely popular within the team and he's the current points leader - so I can predict who the mechanics would side with if they were forced to choose.

Fortunately, as many of us may have predicted, the Red Bull team-mate battle is turning out to be one of the most hotly contested in all teams on the grid. I only hope we get the chance to see how they treat each other if they both get the chance to battle for wins.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:05 pm 
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Max has had some awful luck - but then has gained some positions only by dubious luck

hard to go against DR when he's done all that was required


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:06 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Why have you given Baku(Europe) to Max colour wise when the description goes to Dan?.

Dan finished ahead more often. He out qualified him and he scored more points during those 17 races, never mind the first 4 when Max was at STR, you don't have to count that and Dan still heads it.

So yes it's quite clearly an exaggeration to say Max had the edge over Ricciardo comfortably outside of Monaco. He literally had nothing over him.

You can be impressed more with Max for sure, that's your opinion. But he didn't finish ahead more often so can you please stop repeating it.

:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:38 pm 
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An opinion piece on Motorsport.com supporting the OP's argument: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opin ... ll-926457/


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:59 pm 
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I still think it is too soon to say Verstappen is the better driver. It is the race that counts and the only 2 races they have both finished, Verstappen was better in one, and Ricciardo was a little better in the other, although some luck was involved. Just because Verstappen usually has had better starts in lots of the other races doesn't mean he'd have necessarily have kept up through out the race. We never got to see them both all the way through other than in China and Monaco.

Including every race this year, there has been a total of 489 laps. When Verstappen and Ricciardo have both been on track during the race, they have completed a total of 175 laps. That is 56 in China, 78 in Monaco, and 41 laps over all the other races put together until either one retired. Even though Monaco has the most laps of any circuit, 175 out of 489 laps of them being together is nowhere near enough time to judge that Verstappen is better. He may be, but we need much more time to have this proved. While it is true, Ricciardo has been lucky, there is can be no denying that his performances most races has been very good indeed. Whenever he gets an opportunity, he almost always gets an excellent result. I know I've said this before, but overall, until we get to see more from Verstappen, I still believe Ricciardo is just that bit better overall, although they are very close. Ricciardo may have made mistakes in qualifying but it is the race that counts and he's been bringing great results home incredibly often. It really does surprise me how many say Verstappen is better when we just haven't had enough time to actually see that he is. Yes, he was much better in China, and he's often been better on the first few laps, but that is it, we haven't seen any more.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:35 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still think it is too soon to say Verstappen is the better driver. It is the race that counts and the only 2 races they have both finished, Verstappen was better in one, and Ricciardo was a little better in the other, although some luck was involved. Just because Verstappen usually has had better starts in lots of the other races doesn't mean he'd have necessarily have kept up through out the race.


Yeah, and maybe he would have won them all :nod:

I don't get why you keep trying to counter the point that "Max is better than Daniel" because the point that is actually being made is "Max is outperforming Daniel". Going by everything we have to compare the both of them, that is a true statement.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Max is just one of those special drivers that only come once in a generation. I think the rest of the field knows it already and Ricciardo for sure knows it already. You can even tell whenever Lewis is talking to him or talking about him, there is a sense of awe and respect that you almost never see from Lewis. I feel a little bit sorry for Ricciardo, he's going to have his hands full with that guy as a teammate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still think it is too soon to say Verstappen is the better driver. It is the race that counts and the only 2 races they have both finished, Verstappen was better in one, and Ricciardo was a little better in the other, although some luck was involved. Just because Verstappen usually has had better starts in lots of the other races doesn't mean he'd have necessarily have kept up through out the race.


Yeah, and maybe he would have won them all :nod:

I don't get why you keep trying to counter the point that "Max is better than Daniel" because the point that is actually being made is "Max is outperforming Daniel". Going by everything we have to compare the both of them, that is a true statement.

I guess that is true. But I do see plenty of other places where loads of people are saying Verstappen is the better of the 2. I suppose if we do include everything, Verstappen has been better, but it is is hardly enough to prove that is likely to continue. But in the races, they have hardly had any time together. As the races are what count most, they have only had what works out as about 2 and a half. So that would be a bit like deciding who is outperforming their team mate when under 15% of the season had past.

In the races, as they have been together on track for under 15% of the time, that is what my point was as I thought it was a bit of an over reaction to state he is outperforming him when we have barely had any time at all to compare them in the races which are what count.

One thing I don't get though is why I have seen so many comments about Ricciardo not being very good. He's made a mess in qualifying a couple of times. But his race pace other than maybe China has been fine. And those saying Verstappen is clearly better, well when have we really had the chance to confirm this other than 1 race? We just haven't. I'm not saying that Ricciardo is better, I'm not saying that Verstappen is bad. Verstappen has been unlucky, but therefore, we haven't been able to see much of his performance so I don't get why so many people are assuming and predicting he'd have beaten Ricciardo when we never got to see it. I think they are at a very similar level. But Verstappen has improved a lot in qualifying and his starts have also been strong. But I do think it is too soon to state that Verstappen is clearly outperforming him overall. They both need more time on track racing each other closely to confirm who is better or if they are about even.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:15 am 
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My 2 cents.

This is Dan’s 4th year at Red Bull. Each year they talk up their title chances.
And again in 2017 the car is not good enough.

So I put Dan’s lack of pace partly down to his motivation around a poor performing car.
Give him a chance at a win and he performs at the highest level.

Max has had better starts for sure. However how many times has those starts put him into contact with other cars in the opening lap? Has that contact possibly contributed to his engine failing. (these electrical systems seem very fragile)
Dan on the other hand takes a more mature approach and avoids contact off the line.

The opening post says Max has had 4 failures, but doesn’t mention that Dan has also had 2 failures.

We saw in China how such a small set up change can completely change the balance.
In China Max was super quick in changing conditions in the wet.
Dan was in front but had massive understeering issues.
Max was able to overtake Dan on track (one of the few overtakes of a top team teammate in race conditions in 2017 without team orders btw)
Then during the pit stop, they adjusted Dan’s front wing so he had more front end downforce.
What happened? Dan then had the advantage over Max. He caught him with 10-15 laps to go and pressured him until the checkered flag.

Max is a massive talent and could be great one day.
However I still tip Dan to outperform Max for the rest of 2017.
(in race results = finishes)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:28 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Actually Daniel thrashed Kvyat in terms of performance, he just had far more reliability problems. I think Sainz is really good but when I say "not top shelf" I mean literally not on par with the likes of Hamilton and Alonso. For me, both Daniel and Max have shown that they can be that type of driver. Sainz strikes me as more of a potential Rosberg type. Very fast but not really exceptional in other areas of his game.


But Ricciardo never looked top shelf in an STR, neither did Kvyat. Red Bull still promoted them.


Ricciardo did look top shelf if you analyse the results. He had almost twice as many points finishes and Q3 appearances compared to JEV in a car that most races shouldn’t have finished in the points.

They promoted Kvyat as they had already announced JEV was leaving the team before they got the shock news Vettel was walking away from his 2015 contract with Red Bull.

Also, the only person that has won in a Toro Rosso was Vettel, so I assume this is what you are comparing other Toro Rosso drivers to.
Most people forget the Toro Rosso was better than the Red Bull that year in 2008.
Why? Because that year they were using Ferrari engines that were much more powerful than the Renault of Red Bull. (Over the summer the FIA allowed Renault to modify their engine to catch up to the other V8 engines).
And also Toro Rosso used to share parts with Red Bull all designed by Newey. (now not allowed by FIA)
2008 Toro Rosso - 39 points
2008 Red Bull - 29 points

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:18 am 
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Randine wrote:
Also, the only person that has won in a Toro Rosso was Vettel, so I assume this is what you are comparing other Toro Rosso drivers to.
Most people forget the Toro Rosso was better than the Red Bull that year in 2008.
Why? Because that year they were using Ferrari engines that were much more powerful than the Renault of Red Bull. (Over the summer the FIA allowed Renault to modify their engine to catch up to the other V8 engines).
And also Toro Rosso used to share parts with Red Bull all designed by Newey. (now not allowed by FIA)
2008 Toro Rosso - 39 points
2008 Red Bull - 29 points

35 of those points were Vettel's. If you had two copies of Bourdais, it would be Red Bull 29 - 8 Toro Rosso.

The Toro Rosso was probably (marginally) the better car in 2008 as you say, but we know Vettel is a better driver than Webber or DC.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:49 am 
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Randine wrote:
And also Toro Rosso used to share parts with Red Bull all designed by Newey.


Why does this get perpetuated as if it's worth that much? The RB4 was not a particularly great car. So the fact that the STR3 shared parts with a not particularly great car, what is that worth?


Quote:
Max has had better starts for sure. However how many times has those starts put him into contact with other cars in the opening lap?


This year? With consequences, and not his fault? Zero times.

Quote:
Has that contact possibly contributed to his engine failing. (these electrical systems seem very fragile)


No.

Quote:
Dan on the other hand takes a more mature approach and avoids contact off the line.


I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Being a good starter is a quality. Being slower during the opening phase where a big part of the race is decided, especially when overtakes between teammates are few and far between, is not a deliberate choice. It brings no advantages and a lot of disadvantages. The consequences are not having pit stop priority, possibly receiving the #2 strategy when splitting strategies, having to overtake others on track which is not easy especially your teammate, getting caught up between slower drivers, etc.

Quote:
The opening post says Max has had 4 failures, but doesn’t mention that Dan has also had 2 failures.


That's still 2 failures more, and also very importantly, more failures in the last few races. This is significant since the RBR is improving practically on a race-by-race basis now, and also because we've had podium contenders drop out enabling more chances for non-Ferrari or non-Mercedes drivers to get to the higher scoring positions.
Also, whenever either Ricciardo or Verstappen dropped out, Verstappen was ahead.


Look, nobody is saying Ricciardo is now definitely the worse driver of the two, but Verstappen has been better virtually all racing weekends up until now (with arguably Monaco as the only counterpoint but Ricciardo got the strategy that ended up being the better one). The whole idea that Ricciardo somehow does it on purpose and could have been faster in the later stages of all races where either one of them dropped out is only there because it suits some - but it's unfair towards Verstappen. Judging by what we have seen and what we can compare, it gives a pretty clear image.

One simple question to indicate which way it's going: who, of both RBR drivers, do you think after this first part of the season would be more popular for other team bosses to reel in - Verstappen or Ricciardo?

Now it's up to Dan to turn it around.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:15 am 
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IMO, Reb Bull has the best driver line-up in F1 2017. So, as a team boss, I would like to keep it.
My suspicion, however, is that Verstappen wants out because he wants to win the wdc NOW, not in perspective of a couple of years.

As for STR back in the Vettel-Bourdais days: while Vettel was clearly the better driver of the two, Bourdais additionally had some bad luck when it mattered most pointswise, thus, the difference in the points standing overexagerates the gap between them a bit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
Quote:
Max has had better starts for sure. However how many times has those starts put him into contact with other cars in the opening lap?

This year? With consequences, and not his fault? Zero times.

It's pure luck that he didn't have damage in Canada.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:41 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Quote:
Max has had better starts for sure. However how many times has those starts put him into contact with other cars in the opening lap?

This year? With consequences, and not his fault? Zero times.

It's pure luck that he didn't have damage in Canada.


So my post is entirely correct? :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:26 pm 
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mds wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
Quote:
Max has had better starts for sure. However how many times has those starts put him into contact with other cars in the opening lap?

This year? With consequences, and not his fault? Zero times.

It's pure luck that he didn't have damage in Canada.

So my post is entirely correct? :D

Technically, yes! ;)

But the point I was making is that the Canada start was a risky one, and while he didn't get damage it is the sort of start where a driver often does.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:36 am 
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So Max wants out of Red Bull, seems he sulked out of practice after his car broke down, ducked out of his interview and fined £23,000 for his troubles!

Perhaps he won't have this problem next year.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Verstappen's performance in China is being vastly over-rated.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:43 am 
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So.. interesting to hear people's reaction to Austria.
I feel Max had the capacity to out qualify Dan judging off the practice runs and Q1/Q2.
Q3 it seems as if Max was over driving the car, did Dans older wiser head prevail on this occasion to keep the car within the limits of grip?

I think Dan genuinely out performed Max today. But i think more so because Max looks to be getting very very frustrated.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:50 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
So.. interesting to hear people's reaction to Austria.
I feel Max had the capacity to out qualify Dan judging off the practice runs and Q1/Q2.
Q3 it seems as if Max was over driving the car, did Dans older wiser head prevail on this occasion to keep the car within the limits of grip?

I think Dan genuinely out performed Max today. But i think more so because Max looks to be getting very very frustrated.


Doesn't matter. Before Max DNF'd he was faster than Dan leading into turn 1, so he still out performed Dan.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:29 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
So.. interesting to hear people's reaction to Austria.
I feel Max had the capacity to out qualify Dan judging off the practice runs and Q1/Q2.
Q3 it seems as if Max was over driving the car, did Dans older wiser head prevail on this occasion to keep the car within the limits of grip?

I think Dan genuinely out performed Max today. But i think more so because Max looks to be getting very very frustrated.


Doesn't matter. Before Max DNF'd he was faster than Dan leading into turn 1, so he still out performed Dan.


:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:49 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
So.. interesting to hear people's reaction to Austria.
I feel Max had the capacity to out qualify Dan judging off the practice runs and Q1/Q2.
Q3 it seems as if Max was over driving the car, did Dans older wiser head prevail on this occasion to keep the car within the limits of grip?

I think Dan genuinely out performed Max today. But i think more so because Max looks to be getting very very frustrated.


He is lucky as Webber used to be!
It is a shame as I really want to see this guy on track.
Although it is frustrating, how he deals with it will be very interesting.
He is probably only lucky that it is in a season where he is not in a championship leading team.
It is bad enough that Dan has had 5 podiums in a row. (Edit: bad as in looking at what he possibly could have achieved)

Fair play to Dan as he drove a solid race and had a good start for once.
Had Bottas been penalised for his jumped start it would have been a solid 2nd place for Dan.
Red Bull have been solid at Silverstone over the years. If is if a wet race then surely Max will be favourite for the win!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:27 am 
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I don't think Ricciardo has been that lucky. Just Verstappen has been very unlucky. But drivers like Kvyat have very nearly had the same amount of bad luck as Verstappen, so he's not he only driver with extremely bad luck. Ricciardo has had a couple of races with problems so I can't say he's had a very lucky season. His podiums were a mix of luck and skill, but I think all his podiums were deserved given the situation. He has done an extremely good job in most races and whenever he,s got given a chance to perform, he virtually always has. 5 podiums in a row which only he has achieved in the last 5 races. Iven if some were a little lucky, we can't say he hasn't done a great job in most races.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:05 am 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
So.. interesting to hear people's reaction to Austria.
I feel Max had the capacity to out qualify Dan judging off the practice runs and Q1/Q2.
Q3 it seems as if Max was over driving the car, did Dans older wiser head prevail on this occasion to keep the car within the limits of grip?

I think Dan genuinely out performed Max today. But i think more so because Max looks to be getting very very frustrated.


Doesn't matter. Before Max DNF'd he was faster than Dan leading into turn 1, so he still out performed Dan.

This comment sums up every driver vs driver thread that's ever been made or going to be made. Props to you :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 pm 
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i'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious...mv is breaking his car on purpose to trigger the "get out" clause in his contract and sign with ferrari ! :-P


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:26 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
i'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious...mv is breaking his car on purpose to trigger the "get out" clause in his contract and sign with ferrari ! :-P

During the Baku race I said Max needed to find some way out of that contract. My mate suggested that he should drop the hand on Ginger Spice

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
IMO, Reb Bull has the best driver line-up in F1 2017. So, as a team boss, I would like to keep it.
My suspicion, however, is that Verstappen wants out because he wants to win the wdc NOW, not in perspective of a couple of years.

As for STR back in the Vettel-Bourdais days: while Vettel was clearly the better driver of the two, Bourdais additionally had some bad luck when it mattered most pointswise, thus, the difference in the points standing overexagerates the gap between them a bit.

the race Vettel won - Bordais was on pole fuel corrected - and had issues on start - "only" reason SV won

and SV cost MW first RBR victory by crashing into him and taking both out when MW fastest and in 2nd and likely to win


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:15 pm 
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So, going by Max-fan logic, nice job by Dan outqualifying his teammate today! :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Nice.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:24 am 
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So what do you guys make of the British GP results.
I know Max beat dan in qualifying due to dans turbo issues. And Max was well ahead in the race, but do you guys think if Dan hadn't had had his off on lap (3?) And gone from 11th to last.. would he have caught up to challenge Max and Vettel?

Personally I don't think so. I am pretty amazed that Dan made his supet softs last 32 laps while both Ferraris had tyre failures on the softs on the 32nd lap of the stint for Seb and lap 25 of kimi's stint on the soft.
If Dan hadn't had gotten greedy do you think he would have gotten the better of Max?

Ps. Sorry for posting again after a gp... Im just really enjoying hearing from everyone regarding the Dan vs Max battle alot of really good constructive arguments. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:34 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Just to play devils advocate here could it be that Max is running the car in engine modes he's not meant to be doing as he is always being told to go to a particular mode.

As this consecutive failures can't be a coincidence or can it?


The longer 'bad luck' runs the more likely it is not just luck. Too early to read this for sure, see if it continues.

Max is hard charger who gets off to great start, Ricciardo starts far more measured and tends to have greatest impact towards race end. The can mean Max looks relatively more impressively early and if one of them it taken out of the equation early Max seemed more impressive. But when they both race to the end, I do not see any superiority by Max.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:59 am 
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iano wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Just to play devils advocate here could it be that Max is running the car in engine modes he's not meant to be doing as he is always being told to go to a particular mode.

As this consecutive failures can't be a coincidence or can it?


The longer 'bad luck' runs the more likely it is not just luck. Too early to read this for sure, see if it continues.

Max is hard charger who gets off to great start, Ricciardo starts far more measured and tends to have greatest impact towards race end. The can mean Max looks relatively more impressively early and if one of them it taken out of the equation early Max seemed more impressive. But when they both race to the end, I do not see any superiority by Max.

That is just what I think. 3 full races and multiple starts is not enough to compare them at all. Verstappen was better in China, Riciardo was just as good in the race in Monaco and made his advantage work brilliantly. And here in Britain, I'd say they both did as well as each other overall. 3 full races where they both finished together is nowhere near enough time to compare them when there has been 10 races. In the other 7, they have had a total of 41 laps together on track. Just because Verstappen generally has got better starts doesn't show what the end result will have been. I personally still believe that overall, including everything about them both, Ricciardo is still a little better. But we need to see more before I can confirm that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:54 pm 
I am curious as to why some quarters seem to think that if Max is good, then Dan isn't any good any more.

The old adage of beating your team mate may give us some sort of comparison, but it can't be just that used to judge a driver against another. Granted, Max does seem to be a once in a generation talent. That doesn't mean Dan is no good any more. Dan can still drive a car at the top tier and win races / championships.

These days a crucial setup can be the difference between a driver looking god like or trash. Most drivers do comment on the edginess of the cars and their difficulty to find the sweet spot. Never mind the added complication of driving style suiting the the chassis and engine mapping.

Will be great to see how the two of them fight it out over the coming years. Pretty sure we will have some amazing battles.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:07 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
I am curious as to why some quarters seem to think that if Max is good, then Dan isn't any good any more.

The old adage of beating your team mate may give us some sort of comparison, but it can't be just that used to judge a driver against another. Granted, Max does seem to be a once in a generation talent. That doesn't mean Dan is no good any more. Dan can still drive a car at the top tier and win races / championships.

These days a crucial setup can be the difference between a driver looking god like or trash. Most drivers do comment on the edginess of the cars and their difficulty to find the sweet spot. Never mind the added complication of driving style suiting the the chassis and engine mapping.

Will be great to see how the two of them fight it out over the coming years. Pretty sure we will have some amazing battles.

Who is saying Dan isn't good anymore? I class both within the top tier of drivers along with the 3 multiple champs

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