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How Long Will You Give Honda to Shape Up?
One more year. 50%  50%  [ 15 ]
Two more years. 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Three to four more years. 30%  30%  [ 9 ]
Five plus years. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Honda will withdraw from F1 and I will still support them. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:36 am 
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I'll support Honda, however long it takes - not because I am a Honda fan (of the 2 I owned on broke a oil pump drive and the other rusted away) - but Honda becoming a competitive engine supplier keeps the other suppliers 'honest' in their dealings with the teams and keeps F1 viable..

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:58 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.


Renault powered Red Bulls might not be fighting for the wins, but podiums are a very realistic possibility with that engine. You just dont go from non winning to WCC contending without regular podium scoring first. A McLaren chassis and a Renault engine should give McLaren a reasonable shot at podiums early on. While doing that they can refine their package and work with Renault to generate a challenge on the world championship. None of this is even remotely possible with a Honda lump in the back of the car. Just making it to the grid without penalties is all that Honda can hope for.

Red Bull, armed with what is acknowledged as one of the best chassis in the business, are struggling to work with Renault to generate a challenge on the WDC, and they're long-term Renault partners who are familiar working with each other and have enjoyed title success together before the hybrids arrived. What possible reason is there to believe that McLaren would be able to do better?

They wouldn't be propping up the back anymore, that's for sure, but let's not pretend that having a Renault engine gives them any guarantees of a shot at a title. The best they can aim for is best of the rest, which I doubt will keep them happy for long. Renault have arguably done a worse job than Honda, given their relative starting points. I very much doubt they can give McLaren what they want or need


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:08 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.


Renault powered Red Bulls might not be fighting for the wins, but podiums are a very realistic possibility with that engine. You just dont go from non winning to WCC contending without regular podium scoring first. A McLaren chassis and a Renault engine should give McLaren a reasonable shot at podiums early on. While doing that they can refine their package and work with Renault to generate a challenge on the world championship. None of this is even remotely possible with a Honda lump in the back of the car. Just making it to the grid without penalties is all that Honda can hope for.

Red Bull, armed with what is acknowledged as one of the best chassis in the business, are struggling to work with Renault to generate a challenge on the WDC, and they're long-term Renault partners who are familiar working with each other and have enjoyed title success together before the hybrids arrived. What possible reason is there to believe that McLaren would be able to do better?

They wouldn't be propping up the back anymore, that's for sure, but let's not pretend that having a Renault engine gives them any guarantees of a shot at a title. The best they can aim for is best of the rest, which I doubt will keep them happy for long. Renault have arguably done a worse job than Honda, given their relative starting points. I very much doubt they can give McLaren what they want or need

I agree, if they were getting a Merc or Ferrari engine then great. Renualt is too big a compromise for the pain Mclaren has already been through. Renualt seems more focused on chasis development at the moment which has merits for their own needs. They have not brought a single PU hardware upgrade this year.
If this does go through Honda will bitterly compromise on a STR deal. That will put RBR in a position to choose between Honda as a works deal should they come good. Logically that can be the only reason STR is willing to sacrifice themselves with the worst PU on the grid. Anyone thinking that if Honda comes good Mclaren will have first dibbs is fooling themseves. The relationship will be broken if this goes through. Personally i wish mclaren will stick it out. But they are just too agitated to think this through clearly. I have a feeling us mclaren fans will soon be thinking what could have been if mclaren stuck with Honda


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:25 am 
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I would really like for Honda to stick around and make their engine competitive but it's taken so long now and it's still not good.
If a company like Honda can't make it work, shouldn't we start questioning the regs of these engines? They are so expensive and difficult to develop it scares away any new makers entering.
Even Renaults engine is too poor to win races.

I'd say keep the V6, turbos and the kinetic recovery system, but ditch the heatrecovery. The brake-by-wire should be gone too but I heard they need that with the electric thingies (might not be a tecnical term) in order to make it work.

Edit: Voted 3-4 more years, but at the maximum 1 year to making it work with McLaren. I want to see them as a topteam again, but if Renault is the only option then I think they might aswell stick with Honda.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:33 am 
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as I;m seeing in some news, and from what I can read into it, it's make or break this weekend.

So, supposedly Honda will be bringing a new spec engine, or at least from what I've read from BBC. I guess we will know on Friday, or if not on Saturday who they go with for next year. If the deficit is indeed 80 hp, they need at least 40 for Mclaren to remain with them. And they needed this weekend.

Hoping for a miracle ...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.


Renault powered Red Bulls might not be fighting for the wins, but podiums are a very realistic possibility with that engine. You just dont go from non winning to WCC contending without regular podium scoring first. A McLaren chassis and a Renault engine should give McLaren a reasonable shot at podiums early on. While doing that they can refine their package and work with Renault to generate a challenge on the world championship. None of this is even remotely possible with a Honda lump in the back of the car. Just making it to the grid without penalties is all that Honda can hope for.

Red Bull, armed with what is acknowledged as one of the best chassis in the business, are struggling to work with Renault to generate a challenge on the WDC, and they're long-term Renault partners who are familiar working with each other and have enjoyed title success together before the hybrids arrived. What possible reason is there to believe that McLaren would be able to do better?

They wouldn't be propping up the back anymore, that's for sure, but let's not pretend that having a Renault engine gives them any guarantees of a shot at a title. The best they can aim for is best of the rest, which I doubt will keep them happy for long. Renault have arguably done a worse job than Honda, given their relative starting points. I very much doubt they can give McLaren what they want or need


If people can pretend that Honda offers a chance at the WCC (and they certainly do) then there's no reason why one can't pretend that Renault offers the same. They have performed far better than Honda has, it's not even in the same league.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:24 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


I did say Renault is better. Not that in matters. Neither can win a championship.
How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:07 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.


Renault powered Red Bulls might not be fighting for the wins, but podiums are a very realistic possibility with that engine. You just dont go from non winning to WCC contending without regular podium scoring first. A McLaren chassis and a Renault engine should give McLaren a reasonable shot at podiums early on. While doing that they can refine their package and work with Renault to generate a challenge on the world championship. None of this is even remotely possible with a Honda lump in the back of the car. Just making it to the grid without penalties is all that Honda can hope for.

Red Bull, armed with what is acknowledged as one of the best chassis in the business, are struggling to work with Renault to generate a challenge on the WDC, and they're long-term Renault partners who are familiar working with each other and have enjoyed title success together before the hybrids arrived. What possible reason is there to believe that McLaren would be able to do better?

They wouldn't be propping up the back anymore, that's for sure, but let's not pretend that having a Renault engine gives them any guarantees of a shot at a title. The best they can aim for is best of the rest, which I doubt will keep them happy for long. Renault have arguably done a worse job than Honda, given their relative starting points. I very much doubt they can give McLaren what they want or need


If people can pretend that Honda offers a chance at the WCC (and they certainly do) then there's no reason why one can't pretend that Renault offers the same. They have performed far better than Honda has, it's not even in the same league.

have they? With three years' head start in development? I'd say that's debatable.

McLaren have stated they want to be title contenders. If Red Bull, with all their resources and close collaboration with Renault, can't get there with the current PUs, what makes you think McLaren have a chance?

Renault would certainly give McLaren a chance of catching some breadcrumbs from the Ferrari/Mercedes table. But, while that must sound like manna from heaven in the current climate, I suspect the reality of forever playing second fiddle would quickly begin to grate. I still think Honda provides the most likely potential for long-term success, while the Renault option may well shut the door on that


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:54 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Wow......incredible news. I hope it is true and that Honda is forced to leave F1.


Well that's sad. How can you "hope" we get less manufacturers?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:49 pm 
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mds wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Wow......incredible news. I hope it is true and that Honda is forced to leave F1.


Well that's sad. How can you "hope" we get less manufacturers?

Have you not read HS_Thoms... Er Herb's posts? He has a massive agenda.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Anyone know what is spec 3.7 that Alonso is getting about. Although strangely will only be using it in Singapore.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:12 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Anyone know what is spec 3.7 that Alonso is getting about. Although strangely will only be using it in Singapore.


It's basically a stop gap because the combustion chamber change and maybe some other parts like cylinder heads aren't ready yet (Spec 4) but some non disclosed parts are so they want to bring them when ready as to try and keep McLonso happy so they don't ditch them for Renault. Much like 3.6 in Spa which helped with performance in low revs.

But they're not ready to race so were tested in FP1 before reverting to the 3.5 used in Spa as the 3.6 wasn't actually raced in Spa either as a problem was found on Stoff's unit after they tested it.

3.6 has evolved into 3.7 now but not ready to race basically so just testing it and introducing it here so they don't get penalties in Singapore.

3.7 has 3bhp more than 3.6 which was worth 0.1ths around Spa over 3.5.


As big a load of nonsense as all that that sounds the upgrade in low revs was actually quite good but there aren't many slow corners in Spa so wasn't worth much there but will be quite important around Singapore especially but also the more neutral tracks.

This 3bhp bump isn't much of course but until the big change to the combustion and block happens we won't get a big power bump and it's not ready yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Interesting info from Fabrega..



Put through Google translate It's a bit unclear..........."In Spa, Honda would have released maps quali mode q they gave 25 cv extras. They did not use it in race. Here you can also use the domimgo"



I think that basically means they introduced a new quali mode map in Spa worth 25bhp but couldn't use it in the race. They can in Monza.

Ooooooooh. That's quite impressive I have to say. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Interesting info from Fabrega..



Put through Google translate It's a bit unclear..........."In Spa, Honda would have released maps quali mode q they gave 25 cv extras. They did not use it in race. Here you can also use the domimgo"



I think that basically means they introduced a new quali mode map in Spa worth 25bhp but couldn't use it in the race. They can in Monza.

Ooooooooh. That's quite impressive I have to say. :thumbup:

yep, that's what it says. FYI domingo is Sunday :D

I so hope this is true!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:44 am 
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Did anyone see the FP3 interview with Boullier? He was asked why McLaren unexpectedly ran so well in Friday practice. His response was that they essentially only have one engine mode. They don't have the ability to turn it down, which every other team does on Friday

Bloody hell :uhoh:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:44 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Did anyone see the FP3 interview with Boullier? He was asked why McLaren unexpectedly ran so well in Friday practice. His response was that they essentially only have one engine mode. They don't have the ability to turn it down, which every other team does on Friday

Bloody hell :uhoh:

thats....just... 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:49 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Did anyone see the FP3 interview with Boullier? He was asked why McLaren unexpectedly ran so well in Friday practice. His response was that they essentially only have one engine mode. They don't have the ability to turn it down, which every other team does on Friday

Bloody hell :uhoh:

thats....just... 8O


Wow.....just wow.....Honda continue to dig deeper pits of despair.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:36 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Did anyone see the FP3 interview with Boullier? He was asked why McLaren unexpectedly ran so well in Friday practice. His response was that they essentially only have one engine mode. They don't have the ability to turn it down, which every other team does on Friday

Bloody hell :uhoh:


Priceless. There goes a theory I had earlier this year when I thought one of the reasons they were so underpowered is because they were running a lower engine mode all the time, in order to protect their fragile engine.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:25 pm 
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I want Honda to stay in F1 but not with Mclaren. I would like them to partner with STR or FI if possible. STR have good car but 1year old Ferrari engine is weak. Mclaren is getting free engine and more than 100million $ because of Honda. I cannot see them doing anything by being Renault customer. I think STR Honda can beat Mclaren-Renault next year. That would be fun :lol:

PS: STR is using Renault engine this year, din't know till now :blush: But still they can make good car. Renault is quite behind Ferrari I doubt they can make big gains anyways and Mclaren unlike Ferrari do not have luxury of sponsorship, partnership in addition to engine cost for Renault

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I want Honda to stay in F1 but not with Mclaren. I would like them to partner with STR or FI if possible. STR have good car but 1year old Ferrari engine is weak. Mclaren is getting free engine and more than 100million $ because of Honda. I cannot see them doing anything by being Renault customer. I think STR Honda can beat Mclaren-Renault next year. That would be fun :lol:


I was sat in the car waiting for the wife, when I had a thought.
I recalled STR being for sale? I wonder how much?

If Alonso if off, his wages, plus some pocket change from Saudi, plus a small investment from Honda, and a pay driver to make up the difference.

Would this not solve several problems?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:27 am 
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at this moment there is no logical reason to switch to renault.

None, whatsoever. Except if they think with their gearbox, they might do better.

But, as we speak, i see no reason.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:45 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
at this moment there is no logical reason to switch to renault.

None, whatsoever. Except if they think with their gearbox, they might do better.

But, as we speak, i see no reason.

Yes, I'd have to agree. It's not like they have a class-leading PU. To me it's stepping from the frying pan into the fire


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
at this moment there is no logical reason to switch to renault.

None, whatsoever. Except if they think with their gearbox, they might do better.

But, as we speak, i see no reason.

Yes, I'd have to agree. It's not like they have a class-leading PU. To me it's stepping from the frying pan into the fire


even more, looking at the renault and the honda you are now signing with either based on promises. It's just who you think will deliver a better engine.

These are the moments when you need Ron back. Mansour Ojjeh and Zak Brown are respectable people, but they totally lack sporting vision.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:17 am 
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McLaren's prospects of switching to Renault rely solely on if Toro Rosso make the switch to Honda. Renault will not power both teams

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13161 ... or-mclaren

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:04 am 
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Zoue wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
at this moment there is no logical reason to switch to renault.

None, whatsoever. Except if they think with their gearbox, they might do better.

But, as we speak, i see no reason.

Yes, I'd have to agree. It's not like they have a class-leading PU. To me it's stepping from the frying pan into the fire


Which Renault driver is on their 7th engine & 10th turbo charger today?

Honda's feckless reliability alone warrants a change to Renault. Honda has had THREE years to build a reliable engine. They can't do it. Further, they are not losing this reliability in exchange for massive power. That's typically the reason why an engine is not reliable. It makes too much power, more than it can handle.

No, Honda is making both the SLOWEST engine on the grid and the least reliable.

It boggles the mind how people can support such a miserable effort.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:49 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
at this moment there is no logical reason to switch to renault.

None, whatsoever. Except if they think with their gearbox, they might do better.

But, as we speak, i see no reason.

Yes, I'd have to agree. It's not like they have a class-leading PU. To me it's stepping from the frying pan into the fire


Which Renault driver is on their 7th engine & 10th turbo charger today?

Honda's feckless reliability alone warrants a change to Renault. Honda has had THREE years to build a reliable engine. They can't do it. Further, they are not losing this reliability in exchange for massive power. That's typically the reason why an engine is not reliable. It makes too much power, more than it can handle.

No, Honda is making both the SLOWEST engine on the grid and the least reliable.

It boggles the mind how people can support such a miserable effort.


i don't think anyone is applauding the honda effort. It is just evaluating prospects. We know Renault can build a good engine and so can Honda. My personal opinion is that the timeframe in which Renault can build one is more or less the same as Honda, minus the financial aid HOnda brings to Mclaren.

We could end up in the spring, with a mighty Renault engine, but hindsight is always a wonderful thing.

The same split opinion you will find inside the Macca management as you find on the forum on this subject ( with more indepth knowledge of course ). I would say the technical management would rather stay with Honda, and the commercial one would go with Renault, both looking at different aspects.

It's not the easiest decision in the world, even if it seems to be black and white.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:46 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:

i don't think anyone is applauding the honda effort. It is just evaluating prospects. We know Renault can build a good engine and so can Honda.


How do we know Honda can build a good engine? What possible evidence exists? What have I missed in the past 3 years?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:56 pm 
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I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are singing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.

Yes, I'd have to agree. That's a lot of smoke for there not to be a fire


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

That's been my thinking, too. Would be a win-win for them. TR get to take the pain of development, then Red Bull jump in when things come good. Ta Da! They're a works team...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

That's been my thinking, too. Would be a win-win for them. TR get to take the pain of development, then Red Bull jump in when things come good. Ta Da! They're a works team...


A works team that doesn't work.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

That's been my thinking, too. Would be a win-win for them. TR get to take the pain of development, then Red Bull jump in when things come good. Ta Da! They're a works team...


A works team that doesn't work.

I guess you missed the part where I said when things come good...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

That's been my thinking, too. Would be a win-win for them. TR get to take the pain of development, then Red Bull jump in when things come good. Ta Da! They're a works team...


Makes sense for RB yeah absolutely. Also some rumours that Brawn/Liberty/FIA will give some financial concessions to STR for keeping Honda in the Sport so they'll get a really good deal and just sit and watch what Honda can do not only with this engine but plans for the next.

Though I think they'll still want the engines simple enough to bring in Aston Martin preferably.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


I hope this is true.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think it's curtains for the partnership, too many big players are signing the same song now.

McLaren break contract this week and dump Honda
STR take Honda with McLaren supplying Gearboxes
Renault supply McLaren

It's all over bar the shouting.


RB eyeing a possible Honda works deal once, or should that be if, Honda manage to get their sh1t sorted through TR perhaps?

That's been my thinking, too. Would be a win-win for them. TR get to take the pain of development, then Red Bull jump in when things come good. Ta Da! They're a works team...


I just can't see there not being something in this deal for RB.

If what I heard is right and that RB have the power of veto over Renault customer supplies, this deal is, short term at least, potentially weakening their sister team while creating for RB a direct competitor. Why would they allow this situation to evolve if there isn't a big dose of honey in the pot for them?

Perhaps my tin foil hat is on a bit too tight tonight but me thinks there would be more to this deal than meets the eye and it has RB's finger prints all over it.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:37 pm 
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moby wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I want Honda to stay in F1 but not with Mclaren. I would like them to partner with STR or FI if possible. STR have good car but 1year old Ferrari engine is weak. Mclaren is getting free engine and more than 100million $ because of Honda. I cannot see them doing anything by being Renault customer. I think STR Honda can beat Mclaren-Renault next year. That would be fun :lol:


I was sat in the car waiting for the wife, when I had a thought.
I recalled STR being for sale? I wonder how much?

If Alonso if off, his wages, plus some pocket change from Saudi, plus a small investment from Honda, and a pay driver to make up the difference.

Would this not solve several problems?


I think Alonso salary is 40million $. Mclaren obviously have to pay for Renault engines too. I am not sure how much funds they have. Definitely not the same resources as top3 especially now that they are splitting with Honda which brought more than 100million $

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:54 pm 
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By all accounts it seems a pretty much done deal that McLaren will be moving from Honda to Renault engines for next year. Personally I feel this is a mistake on behalf of McLaren!!! Whilst I appreciate Honda have been useless to date is the Renault that much better it's not worth sticking with a works engine and manufacturer? The Renault engine doesn't scream significant power advantage as a Mercedes switch would give the team, nor does it have realiability.....look at this weekend only Kyvat never took a penalty who use a Renault engine !!!

Whilst something does have to give, it does seem Honda have let their guard down with their stubbornness of not wanting outside help with the rumoured help of Illmor and potentially other sources. Where will Mclaren find the additional money they lose from the Honda engine deal, having to pay for an engine supply and renew Alonso's contract? It's not like their car is screaming with significant sponsorships deals....nor has the marketing and sponsorship guru in Zak managed to attract many new deals for the team to contra the loss of the Honda money. Couple this with some of their current sponsorship deals running out within the next year and it seems a recipe for disaster financially unless the owners are willing to pump in a significant amount.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:07 pm 
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i just can't stop thinking that such a deal would be a dream for Toro Rosso. If RBR are blocking this they are total idiots.

Nobody cares about STR anyway ( especially RB ), so why not let someone pay bit of a bill.

I'd even let Sainz go to Renault and put Kubica in. If they don't perform, change it next year. Who cares anyway.

Mclaren though, beyond idiotic.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:10 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:


Mclaren though, beyond idiotic.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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