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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:35 am 
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A few years ago, one of the more interesting topics on this forum considered whether the new "Ferrari" logos on the air intakes were subliminal advertising or not.

Last weekend I was reminded of this discussion, on seeing the Ferrari logos race by. Gerhard Berger might have called it near-synchronicity, but this morning I found that the Marlboro contract has been extended. So... how do they gain exposure, if not by subliminal advertising?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131637/ferrari-extends-marlboro-deal

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:47 am 
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I think officially the Phillip Morris group buy pretty much all the space on the Ferrari and then resell it... it's a cover for their 'ahem' subliminal advertising.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:06 am 
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If so, I'd say they're wasting their money. Everybody still associates them with a car that hasn't carried their livery for two decades, not Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:16 am 
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Exediron wrote:
If so, I'd say they're wasting their money. Everybody still associates them with a car that hasn't carried their livery for two decades, not Ferrari.


Yep. I 100% associate Marlboro with McLaren. Those beautiful red and white cars are something I'll never forget.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
If so, I'd say they're wasting their money. Everybody still associates them with a car that hasn't carried their livery for two decades, not Ferrari.


You may be right but, as much as I find Philip Morris and their deadly product downright offensive, it's entirely possible that they have professionally configured and analysed market research data that is even more insightful than yours.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:43 am 
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quere wrote:
Exediron wrote:
If so, I'd say they're wasting their money. Everybody still associates them with a car that hasn't carried their livery for two decades, not Ferrari.

You may be right but, as much as I find Philip Morris and their deadly product downright offensive, it's entirely possible that they have professionally configured and analysed market research data that is even more insightful than yours.

Yeah, considering how good I am at marketing myself in business, they probably know a thing or two I don't. :lol:

I honestly don't believe in subliminal advertising, but I know that the big firms do, and they spend billions on it. The joke is on one of us, but since it's impossible to quantify the effect of subliminal ads, we'll never know who.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:55 am 
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Dont forget they have to sell their product to the people who sell their product. I would imagine there were many deals done this weekend to people who may have been wavering beforehand.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
If so, I'd say they're wasting their money. Everybody still associates them with a car that hasn't carried their livery for two decades, not Ferrari.


Yep. I 100% associate Marlboro with McLaren. Those beautiful red and white cars are something I'll never forget.
I think I'm worse than you, I still see in my mind's eye the Alfa Romeos and the McLarens in what were indeed beautiful liveries. So you can picture my surprise on seeing Marlboro dropping McLaren altogether in 2006 and putting all their money behind Ferrari.

Exediron wrote:
I honestly don't believe in subliminal advertising, but I know that the big firms do, and they spend billions on it. The joke is on one of us, but since it's impossible to quantify the effect of subliminal ads, we'll never know who.
If those big firms do, then they most likely have a pretty good idea why. My own penny only really dropped when I saw the Ducati logo after the ban. We all knew what the subliminal advertising was really meant to advertise, be it the substitution of drivers' names in the same font, or the bar codes (brilliant find, I found). But when the Ducati logo came on, there was really no beating about the bush anymore - it was really saying Marlboro.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:21 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I think officially the Phillip Morris group buy pretty much all the space on the Ferrari and then resell it... it's a cover for their 'ahem' subliminal advertising.


Why would Ferrari short change themselves all this extra money? They must be selling the ad space to Marlboro at a discount, so that they can profit from the next sale.

It can't possibly be difficult to sell an ad on THE most visible cars in Formula One.

What a nutty set up. Ferrari walking away from all that extra money.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Its actually quite simple really.

By selling all the advertising space to Marlboro (Phillip Morris) Ferrari don’t have to worry about finding sponsors - they already have the money. So, if sponsors pull out, change or don’t pay, Ferrari doesn’t care because its Phillip Morris responsibility.
Its Phillip Morris's job to go out there, find sponsors, negotiate fees etc. This takes time & money & can be a right pain to do. Ferrari doesn’t have to do any of this & can concentrate on other things like buying more ice creams for Kimi.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:35 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
Its actually quite simple really.

By selling all the advertising space to Marlboro (Phillip Morris) Ferrari don’t have to worry about finding sponsors - they already have the money. So, if sponsors pull out, change or don’t pay, Ferrari doesn’t care because its Phillip Morris responsibility.
Its Phillip Morris's job to go out there, find sponsors, negotiate fees etc. This takes time & money & can be a right pain to do. Ferrari doesn’t have to do any of this & can concentrate on other things like buying more ice creams for Kimi.


You REALLY think Ferrari worried about finding sponsors? Really?

Do you really think Shell, UPS, Rayban, etc would have not paid?

Ferrari has a HUGE marketing department, selling their brand world wide. Finding a few sponsors for the most popular and successful team in auto racing history should be a high school level project for them.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
A few years ago, one of the more interesting topics on this forum considered whether the new "Ferrari" logos on the air intakes were subliminal advertising or not.

Last weekend I was reminded of this discussion, on seeing the Ferrari logos race by. Gerhard Berger might have called it near-synchronicity, but this morning I found that the Marlboro contract has been extended. So... how do they gain exposure, if not by subliminal advertising?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131637/ferrari-extends-marlboro-deal

How do they gain exposure? Possibly by discussions like this and by articles like the one linked.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:47 pm 
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Philip Morris used to, not sure if they still do, use the "Ferrari" style Marlboro logo's and motifs in advertising in places like China, India, Indonesia... essentially 2-3 billions people potentially associated these logo's with Marlboro as they run them alongside the normal Marlboro logos in advertisements in those countries.

So, whilst somebody in Europe or the other banned countries who didn't know of the Marlboro deal saw those stripes and didn't know what it was, somebody in the developing markets for Marlboro would associate them with there brand directly. Up until 2011/2012 they used this type logo and I've seen adverts in China for cigarettes also use this logo

Image
http://www.italiaspeed.com

Image

Cigarette advertising in 2010/2011 in Monaco of all places

Image
f1.imgci.com

2015 onwards, Vettel and Marlboro

Image
pbs.twimg.com

Cigarette counter in east Asia -

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cigarettezoom.com

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:59 pm 
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"" Philip Morris used to, not sure if they still do, use the "Ferrari" style Marlboro logo's and motifs in advertising in places like China, India, Indonesia... essentially 2-3 billions people potentially associated these logo's with Marlboro as they run them alongside the normal Marlboro logos in advertisements in those countries. ""

yep, philip morris pays ferrari so they can use ferrari in advertising in countries just like you said. not to directly advertise marlboro. rumor is the contract last time was worth 160 million a year.
luxottica(italian company) owns ray ban, and signed on with ferrari. then a french company bought luxottica. i wonder if when the contract is up, they will go with renault lol


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Good deal for Ferrari!
:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:39 pm 
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The styling used by Ferrari is clearly still more than a nod to the packaging of the Marlboro cigarettes, but I think the clock is counting down on this being a particularly good deal; Standardised packaging is already a thing in several countries now, so the days of any sort of livery attempting to match/pay homage to the brightly coloured, distinctive packaging of yesteryear are surely numbered.

I imagine Philip Morris make a profit selling on the advert space anyway though, its still a good deal for them.

Looking forward to the regular fallout when this comes up though

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
Its actually quite simple really.

By selling all the advertising space to Marlboro (Phillip Morris) Ferrari don’t have to worry about finding sponsors - they already have the money. So, if sponsors pull out, change or don’t pay, Ferrari doesn’t care because its Phillip Morris responsibility.
Its Phillip Morris's job to go out there, find sponsors, negotiate fees etc. This takes time & money & can be a right pain to do. Ferrari doesn’t have to do any of this & can concentrate on other things like buying more ice creams for Kimi.


You REALLY think Ferrari worried about finding sponsors? Really?

Do you really think Shell, UPS, Rayban, etc would have not paid?

Ferrari has a HUGE marketing department, selling their brand world wide. Finding a few sponsors for the most popular and successful team in auto racing history should be a high school level project for them.


Ferrari would probably have the least problems selling all the available space at a decent rate, but it's still something that they don't have to deal with at all with the current arrangement. I imagine PM are throwing them a decent chunk to have the Ferrari logo still be more than a passing resemblance of the Marlboro chevron too, its a deal that suits both parties just fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:44 pm 
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I would imagine having leverage over one of the worlds strongest brands is worth it's weight in gold. I doubt it's just about trying to get the average Joe to buy a pack of smokes.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Yes subliminal advertising works. So does having unique logos. Why do you think Heineken have those little upturned happy "e's"?

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https://seeklogo.com/images/H/heineken-logo-C4F7E290E9-seeklogo.com.png

The tobacco industry is still a multi-billion dollar industry that has seen it's ability to advertise cut drastically in the last few decades. So any foothold they may obtain is precious, and for tobacco, worth the money.

In Canada all cigarettes must be behind a cover and not on display. Additionally the cigarette packages are covered with nasty pictures of the evil results of smoking. But all of a sudden lately, anyone who buys a pack of smokes gets a complimentary box of wooden matches, not restricted in what is on it. And of course, it is liberally covered with cool graphics of some tobacco brand.

The tobacco industry will not relent, and will always seek any foothold.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Yes subliminal advertising works. So does having unique logos. Why do you think Heineken have those little upturned happy "e's"?

Image
https://seeklogo.com/images/H/heineken-logo-C4F7E290E9-seeklogo.com.png

I've never noticed the upturned 'e's before in my life, but I certainly don't believe drinking Heineken makes me more happy than drinking another beer. In fact it probably makes me less happy, because I think it has a thin (but decent) flavor.

The advertising does work, because if I drink Heineken it's specifically because they're a sponsor of F1. But I don't think the subliminal touches on the logo have any effect at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
...But I don't think the subliminal touches on the logo have any effect at all.

If you thought they had an effect they wouldn't be subliminal ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:15 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
Exediron wrote:
...But I don't think the subliminal touches on the logo have any effect at all.

If you thought they had an effect they wouldn't be subliminal ;)


Very true!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
wolfticket wrote:
Exediron wrote:
...But I don't think the subliminal touches on the logo have any effect at all.

If you thought they had an effect they wouldn't be subliminal ;)

Very true!

That's the way wacky conspiracy theories justify their existence, so no thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:37 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Yes subliminal advertising works. So does having unique logos. Why do you think Heineken have those little upturned happy "e's"?

Image
https://seeklogo.com/images/H/heineken-logo-C4F7E290E9-seeklogo.com.png

The tobacco industry is still a multi-billion dollar industry that has seen it's ability to advertise cut drastically in the last few decades. So any foothold they may obtain is precious, and for tobacco, worth the money.

In Canada all cigarettes must be behind a cover and not on display. Additionally the cigarette packages are covered with nasty pictures of the evil results of smoking. But all of a sudden lately, anyone who buys a pack of smokes gets a complimentary box of wooden matches, not restricted in what is on it. And of course, it is liberally covered with cool graphics of some tobacco brand.

The tobacco industry will not relent, and will always seek any foothold.


The Heineken logo and upturned "E" in the font, that's just the way that particular font was drawn. there are MANY fonts like that such as Kabel & Tekton. When it comes to font design, there are many rules that are set in stone, but different artists experiment with different things and the ones who are not afraid to try new things usually come up with ideas that have differences that are subtle enough to not register too loudly with the majority of people, not even other talented artists. The "E" in the Heineken wordmark was not purposely "turned" at the request of the founder's grandson as is rumored, rather it was just the way the artist decided he wanted it to look. The wordmark was around for a very long time BEFORE this grandson came up with this brilliant scheme!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
Philip Morris used to, not sure if they still do, use the "Ferrari" style Marlboro logo's and motifs in advertising in places like China, India, Indonesia... essentially 2-3 billions people potentially associated these logo's with Marlboro as they run them alongside the normal Marlboro logos in advertisements in those countries.

So, whilst somebody in Europe or the other banned countries who didn't know of the Marlboro deal saw those stripes and didn't know what it was, somebody in the developing markets for Marlboro would associate them with there brand directly. Up until 2011/2012 they used this type logo and I've seen adverts in China for cigarettes also use this logo

Image
http://www.italiaspeed.com

Image

Cigarette advertising in 2010/2011 in Monaco of all places

Image
f1.imgci.com

2015 onwards, Vettel and Marlboro

Image
pbs.twimg.com

Cigarette counter in east Asia -

Image
cigarettezoom.com


I've been in printing, marketing, advertising and design my entire adult career (25 years now - holy cow that makes me sound old! - LOL) and I've worked with some of the best artists and designers as well as creative minds, and a great deal of what is stated about subliminal elements in logos is either a bunch of horse manure or made up after the fact. Just like the Fed-Ex logo ans the hidden Arrow caused by nothing more than the characteristics of the font used for the logo which is Futura Extra-Bold. In most other fonts it wouldn't occur, but with Futura and a few others it's just a natural occurrence when you adjust kerning.

As for the Marlboro Barcode "logo", it was a ploy by them to continue to promote their brand but I NEVER once saw it as anything close to the actual logo and it was TERRIBLE in every regard. I have extremely trained eyes to the point artists would send me stereograms to offer my critiques and opinion, and nothing I've done has ever revealed anything resembling the Marlboro brand outside the colors. I can change my focal point at will just like you can do with your camera and I can focus and separate color channels on a computer screen and it's just colored bars over a white box. the only thing I've always imagined is that if you scan the barcode it would reveal the Marlboro name just the way it happens in stores.

For any nut job shrink to suggest that viewing that Barcode logo subliminally makes people want to go pick up a pack of cancer sticks is about as baseless and incorrect as the one about vaccines causing autism. Both are dead wrong in every regard. The reality is that whatever marketing agency was working with Marlboro likely ran out of ideas and "sold" them on this concept, outlining psychological "reasons" as to why it was a good idea. I've been to too many meetings where that type of nonsense was being pitched and you would be amazed how many people fall for whatever some self proclaimed "creative geniuses" are pitching. It's absurd.

I used to do all of Ryder's work for a decade and had to work with the exact same company who designed the FedEx logo when Ryder went to them for a brand new logo that would better distance themselves from their perceived bread and butter practices which at the time, thanks to their extremely successful campaign to let the world know about their new revenue stream… Renting Trucks! So successful was that campaign that it led the vast majority of human beings on the planet to believe they only rented trucks, negating the fact that they have been the world's leading logisitcs company for over a century. Anyone remember those IBM commercials where they woold come to your business and do a complete assessment in order to write a completely custom intelligent software suite that would help streamline your entire operation while continuing to learn and make changes to further optimize your business?… Well Ryder was doing that for many decades before anyone else even thought about it and they needed to get back to reminding the world they were the big cheese in that department.

The logo that was presented was this turd…

Image

Which looks like either the Russian sickle or the Boeing logo, and although the top Ryder execs didn't like or understand it, WHEN the "creative guru" explained it, suddenly they loved it. That's how gullible people are these days. I'll give a cookie to anyone who can tell me what it is (WITHOUT GOOGLING IT), but I doubt I'll have to pay up on that. LOL

The bottom line is that the #1 rule with logo & branding design is that it should be self explanatory rather than a quantum physics exam to figure it out. They may contain subliminal elements but they should always be secondary or complimentary to the base design so that it leaves little to the imagination as to what Company or Brand X is, does, or offers.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:20 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
As for the Marlboro Barcode "logo", it was a ploy by them to continue to promote their brand but I NEVER once saw it as anything close to the actual logo and it was TERRIBLE in every regard. I have extremely trained eyes to the point artists would send me stereograms to offer my critiques and opinion, and nothing I've done has ever revealed anything resembling the Marlboro brand outside the colors. I can change my focal point at will just like you can do with your camera and I can focus and separate color channels on a computer screen and it's just colored bars over a white box. the only thing I've always imagined is that if you scan the barcode it would reveal the Marlboro name just the way it happens in stores.

Yeah, I also can't see it even if I try. The colors are the same, but the essence of the Marlboro logo is the peak, and that never appears.

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
The logo that was presented was this turd…

Image

Which looks like either the Russian sickle or the Boeing logo, and although the top Ryder execs didn't like or understand it, WHEN the "creative guru" explained it, suddenly they loved it. That's how gullible people are these days. I'll give a cookie to anyone who can tell me what it is (WITHOUT GOOGLING IT), but I doubt I'll have to pay up on that. LOL

The first thing I see is definitely the Boeing ripoff - or maybe a sundial - but if I try to think like a bullshit artist...

It could be an RPM counter or some other gauge - but if so the line makes it look like it's falling, which isn't exactly good. I can't see any meaning that seems to suggest logistics to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:47 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
For any nut job shrink to suggest that viewing that Barcode logo subliminally makes people want to go pick up a pack of cancer sticks is about as baseless and incorrect as the one about vaccines causing autism. Both are dead wrong in every regard. The reality is that whatever marketing agency was working with Marlboro likely ran out of ideas and "sold" them on this concept, outlining psychological "reasons" as to why it was a good idea. I've been to too many meetings where that type of nonsense was being pitched and you would be amazed how many people fall for whatever some self proclaimed "creative geniuses" are pitching. It's absurd.
I don't think that we are talking about the same thing here. I also don't believe that people would look at the barcode, or latterly the Ferrari and/or Ducati logos and somehow feel the urge to buy a packet of Marlboro. If that's what you mean, I agree.

But to see the barcode or the driver's name in place of where you know the Marlboro logo would normally be, and to realize that it has been put there to circumvent a ban on tobacco advertising, does mean that the company has already succeeded with those people. And although youngsters these days might not have watched F1 in the era when tobacco advertising was allowed, pictures or footage of those earlier cars/drivers with the Marlboro name clearly visible will still inform them of the "proper" packet to buy.

As a non-smoker, whenever I see a picture of the McLarens with 'David' or 'Kimi' or 'Mika' on the wings or flanks, I know which cigarettes they were advertising. And if a young F1 fan asks, I'm not going to lie and say I don't know why the driver's name is put there in such large letters. And if such a youngster were to ask now, why Ferrari in F1 and Ducati in MotoGP feel the need to spread their team names over such large areas of their liveries, knowing that every race fan knows which team they see before them without that logo, I think the penny starts wobbling. And it won't be long before it drops.

So, whether or not the barcode was brilliant or utter rubbish, seeing it where it was, and as big as it was, served its purpose. And the logos still do. Which, I believe is why they are there and why PM have extended their contracts.

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Last edited by Fiki on Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:00 am 
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some countries new to f1 are slowly becoming richer and have large pollulations of smokers and possibly less restrictions on adverts


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Reading all these posts regarding subliminal advertising and saying how it works. I really can't see anything subliminal except the colour red! Even with the barcode a few years back, I had no ideas that was supposedly subliminal Marlboro advertising until I read it on here.

Another strange thing regarding subliminal advertising with Marlboro, for a smoker like me, I know full well that Marlboro are disgusting cigarettes and have bought only 1 pack in my life (and that was before tobacco advertising was banned in the UK and there were cowboy billboards all over the city!). If other smokers are like me, and I don't actually know any who smoke Marlboro, then they must be aiming at new smokers. If that is the case, I don't know how much tobacco coats in other countries, but I'd think that most new or first time smokers would want to spend £6 on a packet rather than £12 for a brand they have sublominally been told to buy?

I can understand them using Ferrari to advertise in countries where tobacco advertising isn't banned or restricted. And also them selling the advertising space to a third party. But I really do t think they can make much profit from subliminal advertising.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Marlboro do not pay all this money to subliminally advertise cigarettes to the the 1.5 billion people in the "developed world" where cigarette advertising is banned.

The barcode is essentially meaningless in the developed world. But then where cigarette advertising isn't banned they use the barcode in marketing. The barcode is associated to Marlboro directly in the "developing countries", they also have adverts like above with current Ferrari F1 cars, drivers and Marlboro branding on posters and packets. There are 3 billion people in these markets.

Recent statistics put smoking rates in the developed world as low as 1/5 and they are falling. In the developing world, notably China, India and the Philipines smoking rates are over 50% - there are nearly 2.5 billion people in these countries alone. The Philipines has the highest smoking rate in the world, 70% of adults smoke. Smoking western brand cigarettes is a kind of middle class "cool" thing to do in China too. I have also seen a packet of Chinese Marlboro's that blended the traditional Marlboro logo into the barcode.

Marlboro and the big cigarette companies have already moved into the vaping market in the developed world, all the big vape brands are owned by traditional cigarette companies. But they are still thriving in the developing world. For Philip Morris, business is booming, there share price has trebled in the last 10 years and in the last 2 years alone it has gone from 80 to 120 USD per share.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Lamo, do you know what, if any, influence PM still has on "their" drivers' salaries? And do you hold any view on whether the Ferrari and Ducati logos feature in the advertising for their cigarettes? Does the developing world mentally make the link between the logos and the cigarettes? Or is that simply meant for the diminishing number of smokers in the developed world?

I found your explanation interesting, and scary at the same time.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:08 pm 
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minchy wrote:
Reading all these posts regarding subliminal advertising and saying how it works. I really can't see anything subliminal except the colour red! Even with the barcode a few years back, I had no ideas that was supposedly subliminal Marlboro advertising until I read it on here.

Another strange thing regarding subliminal advertising with Marlboro, for a smoker like me, I know full well that Marlboro are disgusting cigarettes and have bought only 1 pack in my life (and that was before tobacco advertising was banned in the UK and there were cowboy billboards all over the city!). If other smokers are like me, and I don't actually know any who smoke Marlboro, then they must be aiming at new smokers. If that is the case, I don't know how much tobacco coats in other countries, but I'd think that most new or first time smokers would want to spend £6 on a packet rather than £12 for a brand they have sublominally been told to buy?

I can understand them using Ferrari to advertise in countries where tobacco advertising isn't banned or restricted. And also them selling the advertising space to a third party. But I really do t think they can make much profit from subliminal advertising.

It's not about what you have been subliminally told to buy, it's what you associate the brand with.

When I smoked I smoked Marlboros and I'm certain part of the reason for my choice of brand was the association with Ferrari and Schumacher.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:25 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
For any nut job shrink to suggest that viewing that Barcode logo subliminally makes people want to go pick up a pack of cancer sticks is about as baseless and incorrect as the one about vaccines causing autism. Both are dead wrong in every regard. The reality is that whatever marketing agency was working with Marlboro likely ran out of ideas and "sold" them on this concept, outlining psychological "reasons" as to why it was a good idea. I've been to too many meetings where that type of nonsense was being pitched and you would be amazed how many people fall for whatever some self proclaimed "creative geniuses" are pitching. It's absurd.


As much as I like and respect you, I fear that in this case you can't see the forest for the trees. The subliminal message isn't hidden in barcode or tiny details but the overall red/white scheme, where the logo on the airbox matches half of a pack of Marlboros.

Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E-btjrfCR9M/TIWA-xxnwzI/AAAAAAAAAno/hOHkL3Du5_0/s1600/Marlboro-Logo_B-480x650.jpg

Image
http://i.imgur.com/tMmkuGX.jpg

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:24 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
For any nut job shrink to suggest that viewing that Barcode logo subliminally makes people want to go pick up a pack of cancer sticks is about as baseless and incorrect as the one about vaccines causing autism. Both are dead wrong in every regard. The reality is that whatever marketing agency was working with Marlboro likely ran out of ideas and "sold" them on this concept, outlining psychological "reasons" as to why it was a good idea. I've been to too many meetings where that type of nonsense was being pitched and you would be amazed how many people fall for whatever some self proclaimed "creative geniuses" are pitching. It's absurd.

As much as I like and respect you, I fear that in this case you can't see the forest for the trees. The subliminal message isn't hidden in barcode or tiny details but the overall red/white scheme, where the logo on the airbox matches half of a pack of Marlboros.

I'm sorry, but that's baloney. If the point is just the color scheme, what's the use of the barcode at all? The car was already red and white, and had been for decades. Check out the subliminal Marlboro sponsorship on this car, for example!

Image
Source: http://www.grandprixhistory.org/fer312b.htm

Except that this was 1970, well before Marlboro began to sponsor Ferrari or even their drivers. The 2007 Ferrari, aside from the barcode, has no more white than the 1970 car. The barcode is obviously supposed to look like a Marlboro logo at high speed, and whether or not it does is a matter of opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
The subliminal message isn't hidden in barcode or tiny details but the overall red/white scheme, where the logo on the airbox matches half of a pack of Marlboros.

I'm sorry, but that's baloney. If the point is just the color scheme, what's the use of the barcode at all? The car was already red and white, and had been for decades. Check out the subliminal Marlboro sponsorship on this car, for example!

Image
Source: http://www.grandprixhistory.org/fer312b.htm

Except that this was 1970, well before Marlboro began to sponsor Ferrari or even their drivers. The 2007 Ferrari, aside from the barcode, has no more white than the 1970 car. The barcode is obviously supposed to look like a Marlboro logo at high speed, and whether or not it does is a matter of opinion.
I doubt there's any other intention at Ferrari, in using white again on the livery, than to remind us of the glorious 1970s liveries. Although it is possible that Marlboro noticed the use of red and white, we don't know whether this was the reason they started sponsoring the Ferrari drivers. Also, there's little point in referring to the 1970 Ferrari, for the reason you mention.

The point is NOT JUST the colour scheme; it is the replacement of a forbidden element of advertising, by something else, that we are meant to associate with what we know was always there. At Ferrari they used the barcode, at McLaren they used the drivers' names, at Jordan they substituted the name of the tobacco company with a play on words.

ImageSource: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Canada.jpg

ImageSource: http://davidjonesdesign.co.uk/history/banhjordan02.jpg

Ferrari went from the Marlboro logo, through the barcode, to the white square in the same space, to a red square outlined in white - when the subject of subliminal advertising was brought up publically, to the Ferrari logo. All of them were meant to remind us what should really be visible in that particular place on the car body. Being fans, we know of course which tobacco company we think of, and when younger fans look at the history of the team, they know it too.

The other teams' former tobacconists are no longer sponsoring them, so they don't need to go to such lengths. But as the contract renewal shows, Ferrari and Marlboro are still in business together.


There may be a better term for the process involved than 'subliminal advertising', since we are fully aware of what is happening. But I can't think of one myself other than 'associative advertising', but that might not be correct either.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:42 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Whether there is subliminal advertising on the car or not doesn't matter if Marlboro can use their association with Ferrari to help sell cigarettes. Either blatantly in countries that do allow tobacco advertising or just more subtly across the board. It's effectively a loophole in the ban and is clearly something they do, else why bother? You think they're just big Ferrari fans?

If F1 actually cared they would allow any team to have any association or investment from the tobacco industry.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
For any nut job shrink to suggest that viewing that Barcode logo subliminally makes people want to go pick up a pack of cancer sticks is about as baseless and incorrect as the one about vaccines causing autism. Both are dead wrong in every regard. The reality is that whatever marketing agency was working with Marlboro likely ran out of ideas and "sold" them on this concept, outlining psychological "reasons" as to why it was a good idea. I've been to too many meetings where that type of nonsense was being pitched and you would be amazed how many people fall for whatever some self proclaimed "creative geniuses" are pitching. It's absurd.


As much as I like and respect you, I fear that in this case you can't see the forest for the trees. The subliminal message isn't hidden in barcode or tiny details but the overall red/white scheme, where the logo on the airbox matches half of a pack of Marlboros.

Image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E-btjrfCR9M/TIWA-xxnwzI/AAAAAAAAAno/hOHkL3Du5_0/s1600/Marlboro-Logo_B-480x650.jpg

Image
http://i.imgur.com/tMmkuGX.jpg

I guess we'll have top agree to disagree on this.

My point was that the ENTIRE origins of the barcode being a subliminal version of the logo was literally made up by "Journalists" who achieved exactly what they set out to… Sensationalize something, and the masses took to it like a moth to a flame. The colors are an obvious ploy to circumvent the laws banning tobacco adverts to keep the association of the Marlboro brand, but as for it communicating an obvious link to their physical brand icon, it fails miserably. Not just that, how about when they went to the single color barcode? It was literally a rectangle with barcode lines all the way across, no angled lines or red in it outside the car itself.

Some people have suggested that the Google Chrome logo features 666 in it, but that isn't true. Again, it's the byproduct of clean design and uniformity creating a shape that "IF" grasping at straws in the most conspiracy theorist of ways, can be argued are indeed 6's… Well almost. 2 are somewhat sideways and IF you want to play their game, one of the 6's is upside down making it a 9. :lol:

Fool me once… Shame on… Shame on you, Fool me twice…
………The fool me can't get fooled again!


Like I said, I've worked with some of the best artists in the world of advertising & design and it takes a great deal of thought, and trial & error to create an excellent logo. Either way, banning tobacco advertising only served to hurt F1 in the way of money and how tons of it suddenly disappeared, leaving a much weakened financial climate and teams scrambling to find new types of sponsorships from other industries. The packs themselves they were lethal and it did nothing to deter those who are determined to do so, exactly like alcohol and drugs. I don't recall ever seeing an advertisement for Black Tar Heroin, yet it's as big a craze as it's ever been today, if that says what advertising does for known products.

The best advertisements are those introducing new, never before seen products because it's presenting them for the first time to the general public. However, once a product is here and becomes common knowledge, further ad campaigns merely serve to keep the brand relevant.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:51 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
once a product is here and becomes common knowledge, further ad campaigns merely serve to keep the brand relevant.
I think this is precisely what this thread is about: "don't forget about Marlboro!"

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:41 pm 
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No it isn't. It's about the Marlboro contract being extended.

The "Subliminalization" of their iconic brand logos is being discussed, but that's not what the thread is "about".
Regardless, I don't see any subliminal Logo Placement anywhere on the Ferraris and color alone does not delineate a similar likeness either, and I'm trying REAL hard to see it.

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