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 Post subject: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:43 am 
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Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:11 am 
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Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.

If you're going to play the next victim of Honda card then McLaren will be the next victim of Renault...
If they are dumping Honda it should only be done for a proven top engine, not one the manufacturer says won't be there till at least 2019


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:34 am 
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I agree Renault is not the best engine, but it is the best option available. Mercedes is not an option and neither is Ferrari.

At least they can hope that if their chassis is good they can be on the podium and even win a race like Red Bull have this year.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:35 am 
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And then there is supposedly the additional complication that Renault want Carlos Sainz as part of the deal to end their engine supply to Toro Rosso...

Anyway, it's a big risk McLaren are taking. I suppose the absolute best-case scenario is Renault make a huge step with their engine and leapfrog both Mercedes and Ferrari, while McLaren deliver a chassis that is better than what Red Bull come up with, giving them the best car + engine combination. But without any significant regulation changes it's difficult to foresee Renault having the best engine in 2018; realistically, simply closing the gap to Ferrari and Mercedes is most likely. And at the same time, will McLaren have a better car than Red Bull? I'm not so sure. Realistically, it feels like the most that'll come from this is McLaren battling Red Bull for 'best of the rest' behind Mercedes/Ferrari. Worst-case scenario is Honda finally deliver a good engine and McLaren actually end up with what is still the worst engine in 2018, and then Red Bull become Honda's customer team and start winning races...

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:46 am 
It is such a shame that both Honda and McLaren are in this situation. Of course it is going to be a risk next year, we really don't know what the performance of each engine is going to be one year to the next. McLaren have to look at historical data - which let's be honest it NOT good. They then have to weigh up their risk appetite for the following year - the chances of Honda coming good vs the risk of another engine being worse.

If all engines were available you order of choice would be Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and then Honda - based on historical data and the likelihood of their respective performance continuing. Will that order be the same next year? Who knows :)

For McLaren, the risk of Honda delivering a bad engine again next year is higher than Renault delivering a poorer engine than Honda.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:49 am 
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Was against this move at first, but I suppose if Honda can continue with another team then they can always pair up with McLaren in the future if they start to produce a competitive power unit.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:49 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.

If you're going to play the next victim of Honda card then McLaren will be the next victim of Renault...
If they are dumping Honda it should only be done for a proven top engine, not one the manufacturer says won't be there till at least 2019

The Renault engined Red Bull cars seemed to give Ferrari plenty of problems at Monza, I don't understand why people can't see this as being a step forward for McLaren?

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:51 am 
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pokerman wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.

If you're going to play the next victim of Honda card then McLaren will be the next victim of Renault...
If they are dumping Honda it should only be done for a proven top engine, not one the manufacturer says won't be there till at least 2019

The Renault engined Red Bull cars seemed to give Ferrari plenty of problems at Monza, I don't understand why people can't see this as being a step forward for McLaren?


The problems that Renault face with their engine are massively exaggerated while those of Honda are minimized. Once you do that, then it is easy to see how Honda is much more preferable to Renault.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:00 pm 
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I am very anti- Mclaren dumping Honda, because in my eyes a move to Renault will only put them in a class of 3 all fighting for the same thing, and burned bridges to re-supply from Honda.

However, lately there seems to be more and more mention of Mclaren building their own engine.
If Mclaren are really going this route, maybe it is not as bad a thing to just use a donkey to get the rest of the team up to speed in real race conditions they will meet after 2021.

I am still hoping Mclaren Honda come good, but maybe not quite so bad about the result of dumping Honda.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.


Looking forward to a last minute crash of talks.

What the hell will happen if Honda deliver a good engine by the end of the season and they sing with Renault ?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:13 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.


Looking forward to a last minute crash of talks.

What the hell will happen if Honda deliver a good engine by the end of the season and they sing with Renault ?

Pigs may fly?

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:27 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.


Looking forward to a last minute crash of talks.

What the hell will happen if Honda deliver a good engine by the end of the season and they sing with Renault ?


Honda's most recent engine failed after 2/3rds of the way into Monza in Vandoorne's car. This engine is supposed to last FIVE grand prix weekends. It didnt survive ONE.

It is patently ridiculous to suggest that Honda is anywhere near delivering a good engine by the end of the season.

Not one of the engines has lasted 5 grand prix weekends. Not a single engine!


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:31 pm 
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moby wrote:
I am very anti- Mclaren dumping Honda, because in my eyes a move to Renault will only put them in a class of 3 all fighting for the same thing, and burned bridges to re-supply from Honda.

However, lately there seems to be more and more mention of Mclaren building their own engine.
If Mclaren are really going this route, maybe it is not as bad a thing to just use a donkey to get the rest of the team up to speed in real race conditions they will meet after 2021.

I am still hoping Mclaren Honda come good, but maybe not quite so bad about the result of dumping Honda.


I guess it would make sense in the long term if McLaren could get themselves respectable with Renault and bolster their sponsors while lobbying for a cheaper and easier to build engine that they could make themselves. That must surely be the long term ideal, and thus not let themselves be put in this position ever again.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:34 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
moby wrote:
I am very anti- Mclaren dumping Honda, because in my eyes a move to Renault will only put them in a class of 3 all fighting for the same thing, and burned bridges to re-supply from Honda.

However, lately there seems to be more and more mention of Mclaren building their own engine.
If Mclaren are really going this route, maybe it is not as bad a thing to just use a donkey to get the rest of the team up to speed in real race conditions they will meet after 2021.

I am still hoping Mclaren Honda come good, but maybe not quite so bad about the result of dumping Honda.


I guess it would make sense in the long term if McLaren could get themselves respectable with Renault and bolster their sponsors while lobbying for a cheaper and easier to build engine that they could make themselves. That must surely be the long term ideal, and thus not let themselves be put in this position ever again.


Hopefully the new engine formula will allow the likes of Cosworth and Ilmor to return to F1. That is what the sport needs; affordable, low cost engines available to all teams. The hybrid era has produced the highest costing engines in motorsport history.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:00 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm 
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.


Didn't McLaren push for an earlier return than Honda wanted as McLaren were dumping the Mercedes engines?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:17 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.

I said this a long time ago, Honda's last turbo engine was put in the back of a back marker team Spirit, and no one really paid attention to the amount of blow ups they were having. However when the engine started to look potent it got snapped up by Williams and won many races in the hands of Rosberg, Piquet and Mansell, Piquet won a title.

McLaren then basically stole the engine from Williams signed up Senna to partner Prost and the rest is history, people remember the glory years, not so much the formative years.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:18 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.


Didn't McLaren push for an earlier return than Honda wanted as McLaren were dumping the Mercedes engines?


Honda has never said this so I dont know why you would think it.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


The problem with Honda is not lack of testing. They have ton TONS Of tests on their engine. Massive amounts of data have been generated. The problem for Honda is that none of their data seems to correlate to real world experience. Honda's engine is phenomenal on the dyno (according to them; I assume they are truthful). Once you put the Honda engine into an actual car, the wheels fall of, so to speak.

Without accurate laboratory tests, Honda is just left to guess at what is going wrong with their engines. It's a very sad state of affairs and leaves one with very little hope for improvement. Without accurate laboratory tests, Honda engineers are essentially blind. This is why we are seeing not only no improvements, but clear steps backwards at times.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:22 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.

It happened because of McLaren and what you might call the arrogance of Dennis, by all accounts Dennis pushed for Honda to enter F1 a year before they wanted to, they were not ready and it showed.

We are McLaren and we will show the likes of Mercedes who are the best and Dennis couldn't wait.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.

It happened because of McLaren and what you might call the arrogance of Dennis, by all accounts Dennis pushed for Honda to enter F1 a year before they wanted to, they were not ready and it showed.

We are McLaren and we will show the likes of Mercedes who are the best and Dennis couldn't wait.


Where might one find these "accounts"?


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.

It happened because of McLaren and what you might call the arrogance of Dennis, by all accounts Dennis pushed for Honda to enter F1 a year before they wanted to, they were not ready and it showed.

We are McLaren and we will show the likes of Mercedes who are the best and Dennis couldn't wait.




Where might one find these "accounts"?


"Ron Dennis believes the "very acute pain" being felt by McLaren and Honda has primarily been self-inflicted as they have moved too fast too soon in their Formula 1 partnership."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12107 ... -inflicted


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:37 pm 
Herb Tarlik wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.


Didn't McLaren push for an earlier return than Honda wanted as McLaren were dumping the Mercedes engines?


Honda has never said this so I dont know why you would think it.


Was in F1 racing i think, but can't remember which one :(

EDIT: ahh, someone earlier posted it, Dennis pushed - and yes was in the press about this at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Well said! Probably the most sensible comment I heard over the situation, tough there are other god ones. This stands out.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:50 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.


Didn't McLaren push for an earlier return than Honda wanted as McLaren were dumping the Mercedes engines?


Honda has never said this so I dont know why you would think it.


Was in F1 racing i think, but can't remember which one :(

EDIT: ahh, someone earlier posted it, Dennis pushed - and yes was in the press about this at the time.


OK I see it now. This was during the token era so to a great extent, improvements were dramatically limited by design of the rules. That's why entry was too soon.

We are no longer in this situation and Honda can burn the midnight oil 24X7X365 and introduce as many improvements as they want. Regardless of the lack of improvement restrictions, no improvements are actually being seen. Engines fail to last a single race.

Being introduced early 3 years ago hardly qualifies as an excuse in today's situation.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Alleged scoop on what's been going on. Red Bull apparently wanted McLaren deal but may have to meet halfway (40m support) between that and a customer deal e.g. Sauber proposal. Japanese driver part of the deal as well as Sainz off to Renault with Gasly replacing Kyvat. McLaren wanted to apparently make it a Toro Rosso only exclusive lol.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/caso- ... io-949647/

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm 
Herb Tarlik wrote:

OK I see it now. This was during the token era so to a great extent, improvements were dramatically limited by design of the rules. That's why entry was too soon.

We are no longer in this situation and Honda can burn the midnight oil 24X7X365 and introduce as many improvements as they want. Regardless of the lack of improvement restrictions, no improvements are actually being seen. Engines fail to last a single race.

Being introduced early 3 years ago hardly qualifies as an excuse in today's situation.


Could not agree more - I would happily accept that they are down on power from the top guys, cos they have had less time to develop the engine, but the failure rate....so SO bad. If the engine was worth keeping for next year, it should have one of the of following scenarios:
1. Fast, but fragile
2. Reliable, but reasonably lacking in performance relative to others

Alas, Honda's current iteration meets neither of those scenarios!!

A smaller team may see value in it and be willing to give Honda the time to reset, but for McLaren, their whole brand is based on winning so the damage is magnified if they are not, regardless of the cause!


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:04 pm 
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This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Autosport says 'McLaren hopes deal is imminent' whereas Marca are actually saying the deal is done.

Basically the complication here is that Honda will only leave McLaren if they get another team to supply their wonders of technology to. Their next victim is supposed to be Toro Rosso, but no agreement has been reached with them, and the McLaren-Renault agreement is conditional on that second agreement being reached.


Next victim lol ? So they will act like customer team or Honda will go in with some sort of partnership like Mclaren. I always believe teams like FI, STR need good funds to develop their cars and they can be more competitive. STR have fallen away from FI quite a bit. They are fighting with Haas but are good in high downforce track. They have nothing to loose especially if Honda brings them money and free engine. It is difficult to predict next year performance. But you may never know this might actually be a good thing for them. Mclaren will have no excuse too next year :-P

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:09 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

It's not often we agree but I feel exactly the same. Becoming a Renault customer is the path to accepting 2nd best.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20 but what Honda should have done is come back into F1 more gently and conservatively and signed up with a backmarker team or even two, where they could test and develop to their hearts' content, without the huge pressure McLaren puts on them, and with drivers whose main objective is to gain experience and prove their worth, not a frustrated aging double world champion.

Backmarker teams would have loved the prospect of a season where the Honda engine comes good and pushes them up the grid.

Then, if and when the engine reaches a competitive point, it could have been offered to bigger teams.


Absolutely, and it would have been a LOT cheaper for Honda as well. I really don't understand why they went this high stakes big money route, clearly once they had a competitive engine a top team would come calling... crazy.

It happened because of McLaren and what you might call the arrogance of Dennis, by all accounts Dennis pushed for Honda to enter F1 a year before they wanted to, they were not ready and it showed.

We are McLaren and we will show the likes of Mercedes who are the best and Dennis couldn't wait.




Where might one find these "accounts"?


"Ron Dennis believes the "very acute pain" being felt by McLaren and Honda has primarily been self-inflicted as they have moved too fast too soon in their Formula 1 partnership."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12107 ... -inflicted

Cheers :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:17 pm 
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mas wrote:
Alleged scoop on what's been going on. Red Bull apparently wanted McLaren deal but may have to meet halfway (40m support) between that and a customer deal e.g. Sauber proposal. Japanese driver part of the deal as well as Sainz off to Renault with Gasly replacing Kyvat. McLaren wanted to apparently make it a Toro Rosso only exclusive lol.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/caso- ... io-949647/

That ties in with a lot of things that have been mooted, I think that's good all round although I don't understand which Japanese driver would have the necessary F1 super license points?

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't

How many wins and podiums have Renault had in the hybrid era as opposed to Honda?

Why do you think that Honda have more potential to succeed than Renault?

When and if Honda produce a competitive engine, I can't see it for next year, the hybrid era will be about over.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:37 pm 
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One positive is they get to keep Alonso. Why is that important ? Because no matter how bad a car is to drive he amongst all other drivers will find its speed limit every time to about one or two tenths. He proved this at Renault and Ferrari and now with McLaren. Some could argue there are slightly faster drivers in a well sorted car but in a bad car he is undoubtedly the fastest e.g. 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:38 pm 
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't


How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.


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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:45 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
This is the death of McLaren as a top team. They should never have split from Mercedes. Basically they will be nothing more than a customer team (and a customer for the worst engine manufacturer). They will be hard pressed to produce a better package than the works team or the top Renault customer (Red Bull). This seems like a desperation move just to simply get back into the points. It's very sad really. 5 years ago they had one of the best cars and 2 top drivers. Now they have a top driver who is frantically looking for the door and a car that hasn't finished on the podium since they signed with Honda.

As dark as times got with that Honda engine, I still think Honda was their only path to potentially being at the front again. Now they will be resigned to the same fate as Williams at long last...

There is an engine reset in 2021 so in the short term McLaren probably have made the right decision.

In the short term it brings them to the front of the midfield. Is this really the sum of their ambitions now? I think this alleged deal sends out the wrong signals regarding McLaren's long term ambitions and will actually be counter-productive in the long run. I can't see any positives to take from this for McLaren, I really can't


How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren Renault deal
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:52 pm 
pokerman wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:

How do Red Bull factor into this rationale? Can't see anyone saying they are a 2nd tier team and yet they are a customer team to an manufacturer. More complicated that that of course, but customer does not always equate to never winning.

It's an anti-manufacturer stance.


lol, so it is a political statement by Red Bull? Am I reading that right? If so, that seems a bit far fetched for Red Bull. The only real advantage that a manufacturer team has is early specifications of the engine so they can design the chassis around it. All other advantages are generally nullified through the contract of supply (e.g. later spec engines)

If McLaren can get a chassis that is as good as Mercedes and an engine that is reasonably powered compared to Mercedes and put in a top tier driver, they will be in with a chance to win, regardless of their status as a customer - just like Red Bull have on many occasions.


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