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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:09 am 
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Right guys, a game changer here

http://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-to-split-with-red-bull-report/


Renault are reportedly set to end their engine deal with Red Bull, informing the former champions that they will not supply them once their current contract expires

It now manes sense for Mclaren to switch to Renault engines, as they will be a better 'customer' without Red Bull involved.

We wait now to see if it has anything to do with Red Bull having Porsch engines. http://www.planetf1.com/news/porsche-red-bull-rumours-gain-momentum/

Things are moving in F1


Last edited by moby on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:12 am 
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WTF??? 8O

I need a better source than PF1

edit: Ok I just read it again, it's not end of this year. That was a shock! This article says end of 2019, the Daily Mail say end of 2018. Still need better sources than those two

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Last edited by mcdo on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:16 am 
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mcdo wrote:
WTF??? 8O

I need a better source than PF1



You are right, but wouldn't it be good?

This may be related

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/porsche-poised-red-bull-buyout

The rumours are gathering apace: Porsche is to enter Formula 1 from 2021, after purchasing the Red Bull team and making engines fitting to the new formula set to be introduced that year.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:08 am 
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Current deal is till 2020 right? Nothing to see here then. We all knew Redbull will evaluate all their options for 2021 with possible works deal with someone else or build their own engine.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:10 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Current deal is till 2020 right? Nothing to see here then. We all knew Redbull will evaluate all their options for 2021 with possible works deal with someone else or build their own engine.


End of 2017 apparently. - Autosport understands Red Bull and Renault had agreed to extended its current deal to the end of 2020, although this was never formally announced.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131789/renault-split-could-force-red-bull-to-honda


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:25 am 
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... 52699/?s=1

Although an extended deal between Renault and Red Bull for 2019 and 2020 was never formally announced, Motorsport.com understands that it was agreed, but that it now in the process of being cancelled by the French manufacturer as part of the fallout of Toro Rosso's divorce from Renault for 2018.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:58 am 
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One thing that doesn't make any sense, if renault want RB gone and they are working towards that in 2019, why on earth would RB offer sainz to them? There is something missing from this whole story


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:25 am 
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Sainz is going to Renault on a loan, they didn't release him... at least that's what I've been reading.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:30 am 
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According to this Honda will supply both the Red Bull and Torro Rosso teams,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779

So DR and MV will be off then!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:39 am 
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Llotyhy wrote:
Sainz is going to Renault on a loan, they didn't release him... at least that's what I've been reading.


There is mixed reports on that, some outlets saying loan others saying the opposite. Either way makes no sense for RB to help out renault if they are indeed parting ways.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:41 am 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779

Deary me.
No way Red Bull will hang about in F1 with a crap Honda engine.
Max and Daniel both will want to go for 2019.
New engines in 2021.

Interesting times.

You just don't know what way it will go - Honda may get it right finally (highly unlikely)
Renault might make a better engine than Merc and Ferrari next year?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:47 am 
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And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:53 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.


When you think about it, can't really blame Renault.
Red Bull hoping they can use the junior team to test the Honda engine till it becomes competitive, then immediately dump Renault for Honda.
Renault have their works team, and know McLaren will treat them better than Red Bull, purely cos their engine is better bet than Honda.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:07 pm 
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There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Great news if true.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Sutton wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.


When you think about it, can't really blame Renault.
Red Bull hoping they can use the junior team to test the Honda engine till it becomes competitive, then immediately dump Renault for Honda.
Renault have their works team, and know McLaren will treat them better than Red Bull, purely cos their engine is better bet than Honda.


This sport seriously needs to be adapted into a daytime soapy.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.


Dear Dr Marko rehearsed for years putting the blame on the engine provider... He'll soon get the opportunity to work at full capacity.

"Red Bull Gives You Whine" is their next moto.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:32 pm 
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By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

Esteban Ocon is Bottas' rival for that seat.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:49 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
And here I was thinking RB were sitting pretty in the Penthouse with Macca, TR deal and now it seams they've potentially landed in the sh1thouse.

Me too. It looked like they had the best of both worlds

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:50 pm 
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The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:55 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!


How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...



I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!


How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

F1 did just fine after the mass exodus of manufacturers in 2008/09. But it needed people like Ross Brawn and Peter Sauber - people that were there for the love of racing rather than a corporate PR exercise - to gather whatever was left and go racing

F1 would be better off without teams spending £400million. There would be just as much, if not more, entertainment from a field of Force India, Williams and Haas-level teams battling for the titles

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
According to this Honda will supply both the Red Bull and Torro Rosso teams,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779

So DR and MV will be off then!


If only they would all have Renault Engines - then we could see Alonso, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Hulkenberg and Sainz battling it out. it would make for more interest than Hamilton V's Bottas (or maybe Vettel).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Do we know what the 2021 engines are meant to be like?
So Ferrari, Merc, Renault, Honda, and hopefully a couple more, know what to do well in advance so we don't end up with the farce of this turbo era again?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Spiteful move by renault to be honest. Sainz going to renault looks very unlikely now.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:06 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!


How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

F1 did just fine after the mass exodus of manufacturers in 2008/09. But it needed people like Ross Brawn and Peter Sauber - people that were there for the love of racing rather than a corporate PR exercise - to gather whatever was left and go racing

F1 would be better off without teams spending £400million. There would be just as much, if not more, entertainment from a field of Force India, Williams and Haas-level teams battling for the titles


I don't particularly disagree from a racing standpoint. But the reason F1 is F1 is the "pinnacle of motorsport" tag, where are they without that? Bear in mind those teams would still be spending £100m+ a year to challenge for a title, so not like they're suddenly going to get beat by an independent.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Ha! I called this yesterday on the Autosport board...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

Porsche are not just going to be an engine supplier they are going to buy Red Bull out, similarly we might see Honda buy out STR?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:38 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
There is discussion as to whether Red Bull will stay in F1 after 2020. If Red Bull go would Torro Rosso go too? The current Red Bull drivers will be scrabbling to pinch Bottas' place when his contract expires.

Much depends on whether Porsche become a supplier but even so getting a working PU up and running quickly is far from obvious given the Honda debacle.

Esteban Ocon is Bottas' rival for that seat.

No you can put Ricciardo in the mix as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

Red Bull were selling up anyway regardless of losing Renault engines.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:53 pm 
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moby wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...


I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:05 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
moby wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...


I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.


You would be amazed at how closely guarded engines are to customer teams, they are removed immediately after the race and taken back then given back at the next race and I believe installed by the suppliers employees for the customers The supplier have about 10 employees permanently embedded into the customers team who deal with nearly all things engine related. The customer obviously knows the numbers for the engine but they are as in the dark as you or to what is going on inside.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...

Red Bull were selling up anyway regardless of losing Renault engines.


That's far from confirmed. However, if Honda can't catch Renault (let alone Ferrari and Mercedes) between now and 2019 then a less competitive engine than what they currently have is hardly going to increase the likelihood that they stick around.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:40 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
moby wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...


I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.



What I read, dont recall where, was that red bull taper the name out over (say) 3 years, but let the ownership happen up front. So in effect, now owners get a free year, half paid in year 2 and stump up in final year. That has to be attractive to a potential buyer.

Red Bull get the advertising, now owners get a smooth ramp in


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:46 pm 
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As far as Sainz deal is concerned, the talk is that Sainz has exit clause if he is not promoted to the A team next year and he will be a free agent if he wants early.

Renault might have actually signed Sainz for good. But if not already done, it might hit some trouble now.

Cant really blame Renault if the TR news is accurate. They might just want to concentrate on 1 works team and another tier 1 team that lets them put actual Renault badge in the team name as well as all feedback they need.

This situation appears to be RedBull's own creation at the moment. We still dont know as many details as we need to really understand what is going on. Wait and watch.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:51 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
As far as Sainz deal is concerned, the talk is that Sainz has exit clause if he is not promoted to the A team next year and he will be a free agent if he wants early.

Renault might have actually signed Sainz for good. But if not already done, it might hit some trouble now.

Cant really blame Renault if the TR news is accurate. They might just want to concentrate on 1 works team and another tier 1 team that lets them put actual Renault badge in the team name as well as all feedback they need.

This situation appears to be RedBull's own creation at the moment. We still dont know as many details as we need to really understand what is going on. Wait and watch.



IF Alonso decides to leave Mclaren, I wonder if they would move him there? Mclaren seem to like their own choice of drivers though, and Alonso will be needed for the sponsorship he should bring.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Does anyone know, or have a link etc, what is the difference between (the Illien modified) TAG and the factory Renault?

I would assume mapping and cooling could be Red Bulls own responsibility, but I also seem to remember something about a redesigned head?
Red Bull have their own facilities, have they developed a different engine from the same base, or would they have to be the same as the one accepted by FIA from Renault? It is a different name after all.


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