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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So it's alright for Red Bull and STR to do it because they have always done it and have the same owner but Mercedes shouldn't be able to do it with their junior driver who gets his wages paid by them.


So now it behooves teams who are also engine manufactures to supply as many teams as possible AND have junior drivers strategically placed as well??? Then perhaps Ferrari and Mercedes should go with undercover junior drivers on each other's teams! Or... i wonder what it would cost Red Bull to "buy" Icon for example... F1 could become a reality TV suspense series! Throw in a little romance and sex and F1 would get the kind of ratings in the USA they have been seeking for decades!
:lol:

Strange how it only becomes a problem when Mercedes/Hamilton get the benefit?

I'm pretty sure people have complained in the past about the TR/Red Bull link and how it's wrong that they have jumped out of the way of the lead team on occasion. I think the real question is why it only becomes defensible when Hamilton benefits?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Wasn´t it in Monaco a few years back when Hamilton raised a big fuss about the STR drivers helping Vettel?


One could suspect that the "high road" is crumbling.
;)

Again that just strengthens what I said, I'm guessing there wasn't such outrage on here back then?

How does it strengthen what you said?

Another example of STR drivers holding up drivers whilst giving the Red Bull drivers free passage is no evidence of any kind of collusion?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Posts: 23669
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Wasn´t it in Monaco a few years back when Hamilton raised a big fuss about the STR drivers helping Vettel?


One could suspect that the "high road" is crumbling.
;)

Again that just strengthens what I said, I'm guessing there wasn't such outrage on here back then?

How does it strengthen what you said?

Another example of STR drivers holding up drivers whilst giving the Red Bull drivers free passage is no evidence of any kind of collusion?

are you suggesting allegations against STR/RBR collusion have never been made before last weekend?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:40 pm 
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http://www.f1i.com/news/306546-no-collu ... s-fia.html

Seems a few people may perhaps have had a firm grasp of the wrong end of the stick.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Huw wrote:
http://www.f1i.com/news/306546-no-collusion-between-mercedes-and-force-india-says-fia.html

Seems a few people may perhaps have had a firm grasp of the wrong end of the stick.


Funny stance in that article since both Ocon and Wolf have basically stated it much differently, my friend.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So it's alright for Red Bull and STR to do it because they have always done it and have the same owner but Mercedes shouldn't be able to do it with their junior driver who gets his wages paid by them.


So now it behooves teams who are also engine manufactures to supply as many teams as possible AND have junior drivers strategically placed as well??? Then perhaps Ferrari and Mercedes should go with undercover junior drivers on each other's teams! Or... i wonder what it would cost Red Bull to "buy" Icon for example... F1 could become a reality TV suspense series! Throw in a little romance and sex and F1 would get the kind of ratings in the USA they have been seeking for decades!
:lol:

Strange how it only becomes a problem when Mercedes/Hamilton get the benefit?


Ah, so you are playing the familiar "poor Lewis, the victim" card again!

Much of the response to the action that you are seeing is because of the attempts by some to claim the "high ground" of sportsmanship in the past. Kind of reminds one of the gentleman racing team McLaren before the pedestal crashed with Spygate and Liargate. Lewis has before chided others for team orders/#1 status benefits, and now we find out that he has benefitted from his team ordering another to let him by.

I have long accepted that team orders happen in F1... and have often advocated that inner team orders are, or should be, the perogative of the team. However, that is not the case here... where two teams have manipulated a racing situation. I also have often condemned a rather famous "arrangement" in '97... another situation where two different teams (not mutually owned) manipulated a result.

Is it right when the teams are mutually owned, no, not really. However, it is understandable and much tougher to regulate and control. You have thrown out a lot "but other teams do it" defenses, poker, and I have to admit that to a degree, there is some justification in your defense. However, there is a difference and that has been pointed out often.

BTW, just to set you straight, back in 2002 after the Austria race, I was the first in this forum to vehemently protest Ferrari's team orders, though later I came to realize that team orders between teammates is not necessarily wrong given the situation. I still feel that Austria was not justified and was a major Ferrari embarrassment.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am
Posts: 207
pokerman wrote:
A.J. wrote:
Irrelevant - I never said Toro Rosso/RBR weren't doing it, and comments on an article are speculative (and again, irrelevant).

So your position is that you're fine with team-orders, whether within the team or between multiple teams (because it isn't possible to stop it)?

Despite being aware of it have I ever made a big issue about it in the past, despite being aware of it why didn't you make a big issue of it in the past, I'm not accepting not being aware of it as an answer.


I don't know if you're being (deliberately) obtuse or unable to understand my question, but your response is again completely irrelevant to my post.

I'll make it simple for you - out of the 2 possibilities, which one do you align with?
1. Against all sorts of team orders, irrespective of the teams involved
2. Fine with them because it isn't possible to stop it

Simple enough?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am
Posts: 207
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So it's alright for Red Bull and STR to do it because they have always done it and have the same owner but Mercedes shouldn't be able to do it with their junior driver who gets his wages paid by them.


So now it behooves teams who are also engine manufactures to supply as many teams as possible AND have junior drivers strategically placed as well??? Then perhaps Ferrari and Mercedes should go with undercover junior drivers on each other's teams! Or... i wonder what it would cost Red Bull to "buy" Icon for example... F1 could become a reality TV suspense series! Throw in a little romance and sex and F1 would get the kind of ratings in the USA they have been seeking for decades!
:lol:

Strange how it only becomes a problem when Mercedes/Hamilton get the benefit?


Ah, so you are playing the familiar "poor Lewis, the victim" card again!

Much of the response to the action that you are seeing is because of the attempts by some to claim the "high ground" of sportsmanship in the past. Kind of reminds one of the gentleman racing team McLaren before the pedestal crashed with Spygate and Liargate. Lewis has before chided others for team orders/#1 status benefits, and now we find out that he has benefitted from his team ordering another to let him by.

I have long accepted that team orders happen in F1... and have often advocated that inner team orders are, or should be, the perogative of the team. However, that is not the case here... where two teams have manipulated a racing situation. I also have often condemned a rather famous "arrangement" in '97... another situation where two different teams (not mutually owned) manipulated a result.

Is it right when the teams are mutually owned, no, not really. However, it is understandable and much tougher to regulate and control. You have thrown out a lot "but other teams do it" defenses, poker, and I have to admit that to a degree, there is some justification in your defense. However, there is a difference and that has been pointed out often.

BTW, just to set you straight, back in 2002 after the Austria race, I was the first in this forum to vehemently protest Ferrari's team orders, though later I came to realize that team orders between teammates is not necessarily wrong given the situation. I still feel that Austria was not justified and was a major Ferrari embarrassment.


:thumbup:

I don't think this poster reads the messages in his hurry to type 20 posts basically stating the same thing... :?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:11 am 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 6290
A.J. wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:

So now it behooves teams who are also engine manufactures to supply as many teams as possible AND have junior drivers strategically placed as well??? Then perhaps Ferrari and Mercedes should go with undercover junior drivers on each other's teams! Or... i wonder what it would cost Red Bull to "buy" Icon for example... F1 could become a reality TV suspense series! Throw in a little romance and sex and F1 would get the kind of ratings in the USA they have been seeking for decades!
:lol:

Strange how it only becomes a problem when Mercedes/Hamilton get the benefit?


Ah, so you are playing the familiar "poor Lewis, the victim" card again!

Much of the response to the action that you are seeing is because of the attempts by some to claim the "high ground" of sportsmanship in the past. Kind of reminds one of the gentleman racing team McLaren before the pedestal crashed with Spygate and Liargate. Lewis has before chided others for team orders/#1 status benefits, and now we find out that he has benefitted from his team ordering another to let him by.

I have long accepted that team orders happen in F1... and have often advocated that inner team orders are, or should be, the perogative of the team. However, that is not the case here... where two teams have manipulated a racing situation. I also have often condemned a rather famous "arrangement" in '97... another situation where two different teams (not mutually owned) manipulated a result.

Is it right when the teams are mutually owned, no, not really. However, it is understandable and much tougher to regulate and control. You have thrown out a lot "but other teams do it" defenses, poker, and I have to admit that to a degree, there is some justification in your defense. However, there is a difference and that has been pointed out often.

BTW, just to set you straight, back in 2002 after the Austria race, I was the first in this forum to vehemently protest Ferrari's team orders, though later I came to realize that team orders between teammates is not necessarily wrong given the situation. I still feel that Austria was not justified and was a major Ferrari embarrassment.


:thumbup:

I don't think this poster reads the messages in his hurry to type 20 posts basically stating the same thing... :?


And ignoring everything else


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