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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.


No, poker... the dodgy ground is Mercdes telling them to have Ocon let Lewis through... admitted by Ocon himself. Has it happened before with other teams? Possibly, but we don't have proof now we do! There is no dismissing it or making excuses as at the time it was for position... pit strategy or not.

Your hypocrisy on this is amazing as in another thread you have ranted for pages about Ferrari cheating when there is no proof and Charlie has even said they have no evidence of cheating... yet here with an admitted example of inter-team collusion you fervently are pushing it aside. The primary difference being the parties involved... ie defend anything that benefits Lewis, go ape-crazy over even an unsubstantiated rumour of wrong doing involving Ferrari and/or Vettel.


It has been admitted quite a few times. To name a few, Schumacher letting Vettel by in Brazil in 2012 and Heikki letting Kimi by in a race in 2007 (can't remember which). We have also had the opposite happen with Damon Hill holding Schumacher up in the Japanese GP in 1997 (losing him about 3-4 seconds) only to immediately jump out the way when Frentzen came to lap him a few corners later. It wiped out all of Schumachers lead.

Japan 1998, drivers were actually warned not to interfere with the title contenders. So many cars got out of Schumachers way in that race (and openly said it afterwards) that he was up to something like P6 from P22 by about lap 8.
you're having to go quite far back for those examples, and I think the 2012 one, in the very last race of the season, is somewhat different. So more then a decade in reality. It's not common at all


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:00 pm 
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To my knowledge, the last time a driver was asked if they let by another teams driver by was Brazil 2012 and Schumacher. So its the most recent case. Its a rare thing because it requires 3 things to occur that are each themselves rare. Firstly, a B-team to appear to give the A-team an easy time on track (it happens, but there not normally placed to help too often) and then a reporter asking the B-team driver if he did indeed let them through and finally then the B-team driver actually being honest and answering the question. On all other tracks, Ocon probably would have been told to deny it, but Monaco makes it SO obvious as its so hard to pass even a car that wants you to pass it.

The Toro Rosso drivers have let by Red Bulls numerous times but its so obvious to the F1 world that it occurred that its not even worthy of a reporter wasting a question on it. So they don't ask. If they ever did they would likely evade the question anyway.

Schumacher was asked if he let Vettel through because he very clearly slowed down and then Vettel gave him a thumbs up or wave as he went by and it was shown live and through replays in the coverage. Schumacher was retiring that race and had nothing to hide being honest.

The main reason Ocon was questioned was because it was so obvious, you needed to be 4 seconds a lap quicker in Monaco so it was really obvious. If this occurred at any other track it probably wouldn't even have become an issue because it would have looked a lot more organic and normal and Ocon would not have had to lift in any obvious way and if he had been questioned he would have lied about it or evading the question.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:25 am 
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I think you’re reaching for 2012 as Schumacher himself said he didn’t want to interfere with the title battle and it was the last race of the season. Here we are barely into the season so a completely different scenario.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:50 am 
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I don't really think it's acceptable.

These are two teams commercially unrelated - they don't have the same parent company or any such structure.

The only relationship is FI being a Mercedes customer. But this happens throughout the grid with various components. Mercedes should not be dictating FI moving aside in the races. They are ultimately competitors.

We were also denied watching Ocon hold off Hamilton and Bottas. In some way, he was denied the chance to display his ability as well.

Even Torro Rosso drivers won't let Red Bull drivers past if they are in the fight - usually only if they are worlds apart on strategy or being lapped.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:59 am 
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Johnson wrote:
It has been admitted quite a few times. To name a few, Schumacher letting Vettel by in Brazil in 2012 and Heikki letting Kimi by in a race in 2007 (can't remember which).



1. Did Mercedes tell Schumacher to let Vettel by?
2. Did Renault tell Heikki to let Kimi by?

There's a big difference.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:01 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
That's what you get when drivers have to obey team orders though. What was the difference between Vettel getting Kvatt dropped for Verstappen that is one big Red Bull team all paid from the same pocket.


Vettel did not get Kvyat dropped for Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I guess in the meantime they failed to notice all the free passes the Red Bull cars have had from the STR cars over the years


I will not try to indicate that STR drivers might make it easier for RBR drivers than they normally would, but at the same time I think you're exaggerating hugely. RBR drivers weren't found behind STR drivers all that much and we have seen battles before. Sainz-Verstappen springs to mind, but then also you mention Brazil 2012 where STR drivers "jumped out of the way" which is to my recollection a serious exaggeration. Vettel was hugely quick that race and in the wet pretty much nobody could hold him back for more than, like, two corners. I don't remember the STR's doing much out of the ordinary.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
minchy wrote:
I think regardless of who Ocon was actually racing, he wouldn't have even needed to use defensive driving to keep Hamilton behind him and lost no race time himself. In my opinion, in this situation, it really shouldn't matter if he on a different strategy or not - he was currently ahead of Hamilton in the race and should not have given way for him. If Hamilton lost out because of being stuck behind traffic, then it was Mercedes Stewart at fault and they should've had to live with it.

From what I know of the rules, the only time a driver should be let through is if it is a lapped car or their own team mate. Of course, if Ocon's tyres were really shot and he had to lift and brake early, then that would be acceptable, however, as he and Totto admitted he was instructed to let Hamilton by, I would deem it as race fixing and the teams should be punished accordingly.

I think you are on dodgy ground with that when somebody is allowed to own 2 teams.


No, poker... the dodgy ground is Mercdes telling them to have Ocon let Lewis through... admitted by Ocon himself. Has it happened before with other teams? Possibly, but we don't have proof now we do! There is no dismissing it or making excuses as at the time it was for position... pit strategy or not.

Your hypocrisy on this is amazing as in another thread you have ranted for pages about Ferrari cheating when there is no proof and Charlie has even said they have no evidence of cheating... yet here with an admitted example of inter-team collusion you fervently are pushing it aside. The primary difference being the parties involved... ie defend anything that benefits Lewis, go ape-crazy over even an unsubstantiated rumour of wrong doing involving Ferrari and/or Vettel.


It has been admitted quite a few times. To name a few, Schumacher letting Vettel by in Brazil in 2012 and Heikki letting Kimi by in a race in 2007 (can't remember which). We have also had the opposite happen with Damon Hill holding Schumacher up in the Japanese GP in 1997 (losing him about 3-4 seconds) only to immediately jump out the way when Frentzen came to lap him a few corners later. It wiped out all of Schumachers lead.

Japan 1998, drivers were actually warned not to interfere with the title contenders. So many cars got out of Schumachers way in that race (and openly said it afterwards) that he was up to something like P6 from P22 by about lap 8.
you're having to go quite far back for those examples, and I think the 2012 one, in the very last race of the season, is somewhat different. So more then a decade in reality. It's not common at all


I also see a big difference between drivers at the last few races not wanting to (or told not to) interfere with the WDC battle and a driver getting an order to get out of the way in the 6th race of the year


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:59 am 
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Force India seem to be denying it now:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/29/no- ... rce-india/

Meh storm in a tea cup anyway. They all do it, I'd prefer they didn't do it, but I'm also not that bothered.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
Force India seem to be denying it now:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/29/no- ... rce-india/

Meh storm in a tea cup anyway. They all do it, I'd prefer they didn't do it, but I'm also not that bothered.


Storm in a tea cup probably, but Toto mentioned it as well I believe, so that's why it gathered momentum.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:59 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
Force India seem to be denying it now:
https://www.racefans.net/2018/05/29/no- ... rce-india/

Meh storm in a tea cup anyway. They all do it, I'd prefer they didn't do it, but I'm also not that bothered.


Storm in a tea cup probably, but Toto mentioned it as well I believe, so that's why it gathered momentum.


I don't really see FI denying it in that article... Also, I don't think they "all" do it. This is supposedly a direct order from a team to another team to let a driver of the other team let one of their team pass. We really don't see it a lot. It might be done implicitly, silently, but like this? Very rare.

Anyway, this is the source of it all (La Derniere Heure):

Quote:
Nous demandons ensuite à parler à Toto Wolff. « Il vient de s'en aller, » nous annonce-t-on. Par chance, en remontant vers la salle de presse, nous voyons le directeur de Mercedes quitter le paddock en compagnie de son épouse. « Mr Wolff puis je vous poser une question ? » « Oui bien sûr. » « Avez vous donné l'ordre à Esteban Ocon de laisser passer Lewis ? » Sa réponse est franche et directe : « Oui ! » Pourquoi ? « Parce que c'est comme cela... »


Translated:
Quote:
We then asked to talk to Toto Wolff. "He just left", they tell us. Coincidentally, when returning to the press office, we see the Mercedes boss leaving the paddock accompanied by his spouse.
"Mr Wolff, can we ask you a question"?
> "Yes, of course"
"Have you given an order to Esteban Ocon to let Lewis pass?"

His response is honest and to the point:
> "Yes!"
Why?
> "Because that's the way it is..."

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:15 pm 
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mds wrote:
I don't really see FI denying it in that article...


Well he says that Hamilton was let through as part of Ocon's tyre stategy and that they would have let any of the top runners through. With such exquisite hair splitting skills, you could get a job slicing ham for Aldi :-P


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Lojik wrote:
mds wrote:
I don't really see FI denying it in that article...


Well he says that Hamilton was let through as part of Ocon's tyre stategy and that they would have let any of the top runners through. With such exquisite hair splitting skills, you could get a job slicing ham for Aldi :-P


It's not hair splitting. Even if it's a logical thing to do (which it was) and even if they would have done it for anyone, that does not mean it couldn't have coincided with Wolff getting on the line.

When I tell one someone to do something and he responds with "sure, I was going to do that anyway", then that doesn't mean I haven't told him, right?

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:33 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

I also see a big difference between drivers at the last few races not wanting to (or told not to) interfere with the WDC battle and a driver getting an order to get out of the way in the 6th race of the year



What difference does it make to when in the season it occurs? I don't understand that argument.

For example. Imagine Hamilton and Vettel are battling for the title in the final round. Now earlier on in the season the midfield battled them both very hard and cost Vettel points at earlier races.

Now, in the final round, they don't battle Hamilton "because its the end of the year and a title decider". Vettel lost the points earlier in the year, so why would it be ok to not fight Hamilton come the end of the year?

If Petrov took this route, it would have lost Vettel the 2010 title, rather unfairly.


Last edited by Johnson on Wed May 30, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:34 pm 
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mds wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It has been admitted quite a few times. To name a few, Schumacher letting Vettel by in Brazil in 2012 and Heikki letting Kimi by in a race in 2007 (can't remember which).



1. Did Mercedes tell Schumacher to let Vettel by?
2. Did Renault tell Heikki to let Kimi by?

There's a big difference.


You are right, those were driver decisions. That is a key difference. Which raises the question is it not so bad if it is driver decision over a team one?


Last edited by Johnson on Wed May 30, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:37 pm 
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oz_karter wrote:
I don't really think it's acceptable.

These are two teams commercially unrelated - they don't have the same parent company or any such structure.

The only relationship is FI being a Mercedes customer. But this happens throughout the grid with various components. Mercedes should not be dictating FI moving aside in the races. They are ultimately competitors.

We were also denied watching Ocon hold off Hamilton and Bottas. In some way, he was denied the chance to display his ability as well.

Even Torro Rosso drivers won't let Red Bull drivers past if they are in the fight - usually only if they are worlds apart on strategy or being lapped.


That is the same as Monaco. Hamilton was 16 seconds ahead of Ocon after 17 racing laps. Once Ocon pitted himself on lap 27, Hamilton was 36 seconds ahead of him. Literally 2 full pit stops ahead of him.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

I also see a big difference between drivers at the last few races not wanting to (or told not to) interfere with the WDC battle and a driver getting an order to get out of the way in the 6th race of the year



What difference does it make to when in the season it occurs? I don't understand that argument.

For example. Imagine Hamilton and Vettel are battling for the title in the final round. Now earlier on in the season the midfield battled them both very hard and cost Vettel points at earlier races.

Now, in the final round, they don't battle Hamilton "because its the end of the year and a title decider". Vettel lost the points earlier in the year, so why would it be ok to not fight Hamilton come the end of the year?

If Petrov took this route, it would have lost Vettel the 2010 title, rather unfairly.


You don't see the difference? Ok, I'll explain as best as I can. There are two differences. Firstly, as you brought him up, Petrov is (amongst other things) remembered as the guy that Alonso was stuck behind and lost the 2010 title. Do you think that any driver would have wanted to be remembered as the guy that cost Hamilton or Vettel the title on the last race?

The other difference (and most important one) is that you just don't know what happens in the end of the year. Hindsight is beautiful, but mid season you can't tell if Vettel will be battling Hamilton at the end of the year in order for a driver to let him through or not. In the last race you do know indeed who is battling for what, so we see drivers deciding to stay away from the WDC battle. You only have to look last year for an example, mid-season it looked like a spectacular battle for the title, only for Vettel and Ferrari to fade at the last part.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Neither of those reasons validate not fighting cars all through the year. It makes no difference to which part of the year it occurs - its exactly the same thing. Petrov drove his race, I applaud him - F1 is a season, 20 races, 25 points each race. Alonso lost because he scored less over the entire year.

If anything it is worst doing it in the later part of the year or final race because you know by doing so you are influencing the title fight where as you correctly say in the earlier part of the year you don't always know who the title challengers will be.

By making life easy for one title challenger you are robbing the other title challenger. So either way you are "fixing" the race in some way.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Neither of those reasons validate not fighting cars all through the year. It makes no difference to which part of the year it occurs - its exactly the same thing. Petrov drove his race, I applaud him - F1 is a season, 20 races, 25 points each race. Alonso lost because he scored less over the entire year.

If anything it is worst doing it in the later part of the year or final race because you know by doing so you are influencing the title fight where as you correctly say in the earlier part of the year you don't always know who the title challengers will be.

By making life easy for one title challenger you are robbing the other title challenger. So either way you are "fixing" the race in some way.


You seem to be confusing my stance. I applaud Petrov too for fighting them. But I would understand if he also wanted to stay out of it in order not to interfere with a dramatic WDC fight.

The WDC is fought over a whole year, that's for sure. But the final race, when it has a showdown between two (or more) drivers, is a much more interesting situation and people may want to get out of this particular fight. And it is not robbing anyone if the backmarkers have the same stance for all WDC fighting drivers, either let them through or fight them.

But for one team to get team orders from another to let their driver through then it is a bit bad. It is different situation and we can surely agree to disagree!


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Yes I also dislike such team orders between teams, I just saw a few people here saying "but that was in the last race" which I thought was odd. Now having discussed it and thought about it, I actually think its worse doing it in the last race because it actively can decide the title race where as earlier in the year nothing is settled.

Imagine if Ocon did that in the final race and it won Hamilton the title. There would be much more outrage right now, that is for sure. This thread would be 10x longer for starters

It also not lost on me that it was a Renault that held up Alonso for Red Bull - Renault to win the titles that year. I'm almost certain Alonso would have passed a Ferrari customer in this situation...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes I also dislike such team orders between teams, I just saw a few people here saying "but that was in the last race" which I thought was odd. Now having discussed it and thought about it, I actually think its worse doing it in the last race because it actively can decide the title race where as earlier in the year nothing is settled.

Imagine if Ocon did that in the final race and it won Hamilton the title. There would be much more outrage right now, that is for sure. This thread would be 10x longer for starters

It also not lost on me that it was a Renault that held up Alonso for Red Bull - Renault to win the titles that year. I'm almost certain Alonso would have passed a Ferrari customer in this situation...


That is what I was saying as well


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Yes I also dislike such team orders between teams, I just saw a few people here saying "but that was in the last race" which I thought was odd. Now having discussed it and thought about it, I actually think its worse doing it in the last race because it actively can decide the title race where as earlier in the year nothing is settled.

Imagine if Ocon did that in the final race and it won Hamilton the title. There would be much more outrage right now, that is for sure. This thread would be 10x longer for starters

It also not lost on me that it was a Renault that held up Alonso for Red Bull - Renault to win the titles that year. I'm almost certain Alonso would have passed a Ferrari customer in this situation...

I think you're over-analyzing. It's human nature for a driver to think that he doesn't want to get involved in a title fight in the last race. Yes, I get that by removing himself he was arguably involving himself, but I can understand the thought process in the race that would make him feel otherwise. Ocon diving out of the way early season through team orders is completely different. They are orchestrating an outcome, whereas MSC was trying to do the opposite


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Not fighting for position because it will affect your strategy - ok
Not fighting for position with team mate because it will risk team constructors - ok
Not fighting for position because your team mate has better chance of winning championship - ok
Not fighting too hard for position toward end of championship because taking out the other driver may be title decider - ok
Not fighting for position because another team orders you to - completely wrong on every level.
This by the way is the reason why we should never get rid of blue flags. So midfield teams should not complain about blue flags.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Pretty sure it's not even the first time this year. Ocon didn't put up much fight when Bottas passed him in Australia either.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes I also dislike such team orders between teams, I just saw a few people here saying "but that was in the last race" which I thought was odd. Now having discussed it and thought about it, I actually think its worse doing it in the last race because it actively can decide the title race where as earlier in the year nothing is settled.

Imagine if Ocon did that in the final race and it won Hamilton the title. There would be much more outrage right now, that is for sure. This thread would be 10x longer for starters

It also not lost on me that it was a Renault that held up Alonso for Red Bull - Renault to win the titles that year. I'm almost certain Alonso would have passed a Ferrari customer in this situation...

I think you're over-analyzing. It's human nature for a driver to think that he doesn't want to get involved in a title fight in the last race. Yes, I get that by removing himself he was arguably involving himself, but I can understand the thought process in the race that would make him feel otherwise. Ocon diving out of the way early season through team orders is completely different. They are orchestrating an outcome, whereas MSC was trying to do the opposite


Yes two teams coming to a pre race agreement is very different to a driver not wanting to risk costing someone a WDC in the final race of the season.

Merc obviously knew Ocon would move over so could pit Hamilton earlier. Having that agreement in place before hand gave them a massive strategical advantage.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:01 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
Not fighting for position because it will affect your strategy - ok
Not fighting for position with team mate because it will risk team constructors - ok
Not fighting for position because your team mate has better chance of winning championship - ok
Not fighting too hard for position toward end of championship because taking out the other driver may be title decider - ok
Not fighting for position because another team orders you to - completely wrong on every level.


+1

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:34 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:18 am 
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Would Perez let them past?

I'm not convinced it's a customer thing but rather a young driver programme thing so a better example will be watching Sainz,Leclerc,Gasly,Hartley and Ocon and see how they fight with their YDP teams cars.

Ocon has let Bottas and Lewis through
Sainz fought Verstappen

And that's all I've noticed thus far but obviously I wasn't looking for it before.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:26 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Would Perez let them past?

I'm not convinced it's a customer thing but rather a young driver programme thing so a better example will be watching Sainz,Leclerc,Gasly,Hartley and Ocon and see how they fight with their YDP teams cars.

Ocon has let Bottas and Lewis through
Sainz fought Verstappen

And that's all I've noticed thus far but obviously I wasn't looking for it before.

Sainz was actually fighting Verstappen for race position late in the race plus they aren't exactly buddies from their STR days, also I would venture that Sainz may see his future is probably at Renault now, if Ricciardo resigns with Red Bull then Sainz is a free agent.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Would Perez let them past?

I'm not convinced it's a customer thing but rather a young driver programme thing so a better example will be watching Sainz,Leclerc,Gasly,Hartley and Ocon and see how they fight with their YDP teams cars.

Ocon has let Bottas and Lewis through
Sainz fought Verstappen

And that's all I've noticed thus far but obviously I wasn't looking for it before.

Sainz was actually fighting Verstappen for race position late in the race plus they aren't exactly buddies from their STR days, also I would venture that Sainz may see his future is probably at Renault now, if Ricciardo resigns with Red Bull then Sainz is a free agent.


Could be anything really, just putting out what we've seen, not attaching any meaning to it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Give us examples lest it be another of the examples things you have "heard" but can't back up. I have been watching kind of... but haven't seen verifiable cases of Haas moving over to benefit Ferrari...especially on Ferrari orders.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:34 am 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes I also dislike such team orders between teams, I just saw a few people here saying "but that was in the last race" which I thought was odd. Now having discussed it and thought about it, I actually think its worse doing it in the last race because it actively can decide the title race where as earlier in the year nothing is settled.

Imagine if Ocon did that in the final race and it won Hamilton the title. There would be much more outrage right now, that is for sure. This thread would be 10x longer for starters

It also not lost on me that it was a Renault that held up Alonso for Red Bull - Renault to win the titles that year. I'm almost certain Alonso would have passed a Ferrari customer in this situation...

I think you're over-analyzing. It's human nature for a driver to think that he doesn't want to get involved in a title fight in the last race. Yes, I get that by removing himself he was arguably involving himself, but I can understand the thought process in the race that would make him feel otherwise. Ocon diving out of the way early season through team orders is completely different. They are orchestrating an outcome, whereas MSC was trying to do the opposite


But even this part is not valid as long as the back marker treats both WDC contenders the same, be it that he allows both past or holds them both.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:01 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.
Australia? 'Hey, just go a little easy no the wheel-nut torque, if you wouldn't mind...'
(just for clarity, tongue-in-cheek filter off)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:38 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.
Australia? 'Hey, just go a little easy no the wheel-nut torque, if you wouldn't mind...'
(just for clarity, tongue-in-cheek filter off)


If that came out to be a Ferrari instruction, I do believe that the interwebs would explode!!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:49 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.

I've never seen a Haas car make it difficult for a Ferrari to pass and this would be for actual race position, however I have seen a Haas car get criticised for ignoring blue flags and apparently it was deliberate.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/176 ... lag-debate

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/171 ... g-comments

Strange that it never involved a Ferrari driver.

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.

I've never seen a Haas car make it difficult for a Ferrari to pass and this would be for actual race position, however I have seen a Haas car get criticised for ignoring blue flags and apparently it was deliberate.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/176 ... lag-debate

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/171 ... g-comments

Strange that it never involved a Ferrari driver.


You've absolutely no idea if he moved out the way any quicker for Ferrari drivers or not.

I said at the time and I stand by it. I never saw Guttierez do anything wrong 'RE blue flags. At Singapore they were being waved at him when he was still 2 corners ahead of the lead cars.

It doesn't even stand up any comparison to be honest.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Has there been an instance where Haas let Ferrari through easily? I can’t recall any.

Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.

I've never seen a Haas car make it difficult for a Ferrari to pass and this would be for actual race position, however I have seen a Haas car get criticised for ignoring blue flags and apparently it was deliberate.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/176 ... lag-debate

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/171 ... g-comments

Strange that it never involved a Ferrari driver.


You've absolutely no idea if he moved out the way any quicker for Ferrari drivers or not.

I said at the time and I stand by it. I never saw Guttierez do anything wrong 'RE blue flags. At Singapore they were being waved at him when he was still 2 corners ahead of the lead cars.

It doesn't even stand up any comparison to be honest.

If it was such a heinous thing then why doesn't it concern the FIA, why was Wolff so blasa about it?

Just a coincidence that there is no evidence of a Ferrari being held up?

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Maybe you just haven't been watching?

Also if this is such a big issue why are we not hearing more from the FIA or other teams?


Can you think of any examples where Ferrari have clearly been able to factor the Haas drivers pulling over abd waving them past in to their strategy?

This went quite far beyond what we have seen before.

I've never seen a Haas car make it difficult for a Ferrari to pass and this would be for actual race position, however I have seen a Haas car get criticised for ignoring blue flags and apparently it was deliberate.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/176 ... lag-debate

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/171 ... g-comments

Strange that it never involved a Ferrari driver.


You've absolutely no idea if he moved out the way any quicker for Ferrari drivers or not.

I said at the time and I stand by it. I never saw Guttierez do anything wrong 'RE blue flags. At Singapore they were being waved at him when he was still 2 corners ahead of the lead cars.

It doesn't even stand up any comparison to be honest.

If it was such a heinous thing then why doesn't it concern the FIA, why was Wolff so blasa about it?

Just a coincidence that there is no evidence of a Ferrari being held up?


The FIA not investigating is not proof of innocence. Nor is the opposite, investigating something doesn't mean that someone is guilty.

Equally, you not remembering Ferrari being held up does not mean that they have given orders to other teams to let them by. Hilariously, when we do finally have someone admitting to orders, you don't believe it as it involves Mercedes!!!

You have a very weird concept of judging things, you seem to clutch to every rumour that goes against your favourite driver's competitors and not believe anything that goes against him. I do hope you are not working in a court of law.


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