planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:39 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
I feel this has gone off topic.....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:04 pm
Posts: 428
mikeyg123 wrote:
I feel this has gone off topic.....

I agree... sorry about that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5447
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:

And Vettel had 9 straight, yet you aren't allowing him any slack but Hamilton you choose even though he lost in points, podiums, points finishes over 3 years with Button and ended up loosing to Rosberg in his last year, but he doens't need to redeem, just Vettel?

Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first pre-season practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?

You've missed the point entirely haven't you? The point was that Hamilton, even when he was not bringing home the points he should have been, was still FASTER than Jenson. He was not bringing home as many points because of all of the collisions and DNFs he had in the second half of that year; not because Button was outpacing him.

Ricciardo, on the other hand, was FASTER than Vettel. You have to understand that that is a critical element of what we should be assessing here. Compare the difference between the Dan/Max matchup and the Dan/Seb matchup for example. Dan is beating Max because he is avoiding the collisions and incidents that Max is getting caught up in. He beat Vettel by outqualifying and outracing him. There is a substantial difference. Many people would tell you that, if Max can start using his head and making better decisions, he'll beat Daniel simply because Max is perhaps slightly faster. With Sebastian, there was no real way to say that other than in wet weather situations because Daniel was faster than him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3408
DOLOMITE wrote:
Leclerc is a future Champ
Vandoorne needs to up his game

But are either of these true?

Leclerc is apparently excelling in a Sauber....or at least he is in relation to Ericsson who is at best a competent journeyman

Meanwhile Vandoorne is struggling in a McLaren...or at least he is relation to Alonso a known entity who always gets the most from any car

Who's to say Vandoorne wouldnt have achieved a similar point haul as Leclerc had he been in the Sauber for example. Any maybe Leclerc would have been even more battered than Vandoorne has had he sat in the other McLaren

Just makes me think about how when a junior driver gets the chance to drive in F1, I wonder how much their potential teammate weighs on their mind and could it actually affect their decision (management teams/sponsors aside).

You only get 1 chance at a first impression so the saying goes.

btw I know Vandoorne isn't a rookie - just makes the point well in terms of how a drivers ability is viewed

Thoughts?


To me it's not just the performance against the teammates that distinguishes them. You take the pace difference with his teammate aside and Vandoorne just appears bland, doesn't show any race craft, never does anything exciting.
You do the same with Leclerc and you still have him defending brilliantly against faster cars, making good starts, forcing the tv production feed to focus on him.
But when you do factor in the relative pace difference to their teammates, Leclerc is thrashing Ericsson, who himself beat Nasr and ran Wherlein close. So Leclerc is clearly better than those guys too.
Vandoorne has been able to run Alonso close sometimes in qualifying, but in the races he is never in the same league as Alonso in terms of pace.
To me it's clear that Leclerc > Vandoorne
But is he a future champ? That is not certain yet. Let's wait and see how he does with a car that is expected to get good results.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:04 pm
Posts: 428
sandman1347 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Oh the 3 year championship?

Hamilton beat Button in 2012, the final year they were teammates, he also beat Button in 2010, but yes that compares exactly with the beating Vettel took from Ricciardo.


I already know you can probably write 100 posts about it, but I merely stated a fact, and yes the beating Hamilton took in 2011 is comparable to what Vettel took in 2014.

Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first pre-season practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?

You've missed the point entirely haven't you? The point was that Hamilton, even when he was not bringing home the points he should have been, was still FASTER than Jenson. He was not bringing home as many points because of all of the collisions and DNFs he had in the second half of that year; not because Button was outpacing him.

Ricciardo, on the other hand, was FASTER than Vettel. You have to understand that that is a critical element of what we should be assessing here. Compare the difference between the Dan/Max matchup and the Dan/Seb matchup for example. Dan is beating Max because he is avoiding the collisions and incidents that Max is getting caught up in. He beat Vettel by outqualifying and outracing him. There is a substantial difference. Many people would tell you that, if Max can start using his head and making better decisions, he'll beat Daniel simply because Max is perhaps slightly faster. With Sebastian, there was no real way to say that other than in wet weather situations because Daniel was faster than him.

Vettel needs to finish behind his teammate to get out of his contract yet needs to beat his teammate to prevent Hamilton fans on forums from using it against him regardless of anything else he accomplishes. Tough Decision.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 5447
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Gumption wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Nope not really. In 2011 Hamilton was actually ahead of Button half way through the season. He seemingly lost focus after it became clear that Vettel was going to win the title and had an abysmal second half of the season. That's when Button surged ahead of him in the points (primarily due to DNFs). Button was NOT beating Hamilton in qualifying and was NOT faster than him. He was simply scoring more points at a point in the season where the championship was already over with. That combined with the fact that Hamilton obliterated Button the following year (forget the points, Hamilton lost an insane amount of points through reliability and team errors in 2012) makes it clear to anyone that Hamilton was in a different league from Jenson.

By contrast, Daniel was beating Vettel both on Saturdays and Sundays. He was FASTER than Vettel. That's a massive difference. With 2011, you would say that Button clearly had a better season than Hamilton. With 2014; you would likely say that Daniel was the better driver than Vettel. That is night and day different.

So the excuse that Hamilton lost focus makes it okay that Button thrashed him? So when it became clear to Vettel early in 2014 that he wouldn't have a prayer of being in the championship hunt, it's not okay for Vettel to lose focus. Also, the team he's always wanted to drive for had an opening and why would Ferrari take someone who's currently be thrashed by Ricciardo? And in 2014 Vettel had vastly more reliability problems than Ricciardo did and it started from the very first pre-season practice session. And it was announced half-way through the season that Vettel was leaving so why would Red Bull not favor Ricciardo and wouldn't that make Vettel lose a bit more focus?

You've missed the point entirely haven't you? The point was that Hamilton, even when he was not bringing home the points he should have been, was still FASTER than Jenson. He was not bringing home as many points because of all of the collisions and DNFs he had in the second half of that year; not because Button was outpacing him.

Ricciardo, on the other hand, was FASTER than Vettel. You have to understand that that is a critical element of what we should be assessing here. Compare the difference between the Dan/Max matchup and the Dan/Seb matchup for example. Dan is beating Max because he is avoiding the collisions and incidents that Max is getting caught up in. He beat Vettel by outqualifying and outracing him. There is a substantial difference. Many people would tell you that, if Max can start using his head and making better decisions, he'll beat Daniel simply because Max is perhaps slightly faster. With Sebastian, there was no real way to say that other than in wet weather situations because Daniel was faster than him.

Vettel needs to finish behind his teammate to get out of his contract yet needs to beat his teammate to prevent Hamilton fans on forums from using it against him regardless of anything else he accomplishes. Tough Decision.

What are you talking about? Vettel didn't need to finish behind his teammate to "get out of his contract". His contract was up and he had already signed with Ferrari before Daniel beat him that year. The world is not divided into two types of people (Vettel fans and Hamilton fans) contrary to what you seem to think. Some people just want the conversation in here to be sensible when possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 634
Vettel was actually ahead of Ricciardo in the WDC after 5 rounds in 2014 so he wasn't doing a very good job of being out scored by his team mate approaching the period in which contract negotiations would occur. Fortunately for Vettel he broke down in 2 of the next 3 races so Ricciardo moved clear of him by mid season.

Red Bull had an option to keep Vettel but he was free to go if he didn't have a certain percentage of points of the WDC leader at I think it was the half way point and given how the Mercedes pair were scoring that year he was nowhere near it. I think I heard 70% at mid season. Vettel had more like 35%.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:13 pm
Posts: 294
Right then Ladies and Gentlemen, lets steer this back onto the original topic.

If you really want to do Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014 again, feel free to make a new thread.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2033
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)


Well, before being partnered with Mansell, Piquet never had any good teammates after his rookie season. Giving him much merit for beating drivers like Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, Fabi, etc. would be very rose-tinted. And even the strongest among his teammates at Brabham, guys like Patrese and Winkelhock, hardly belong to the top driver category.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Yes, the team mate is the gauge. The be all and end all. If Vettel wasn't out classed by Ricciardo in 2014 he would now be considered almost Schumacher level great or at least the finest driver of this generation.

Sometimes an average/good driver can look great when paired with a useless one. The extreme case being Massa and Stroll last year. Massa was regularly 1 second quicker.

Sometimes a great car can have two average or just good drivers in it and never get the results it might have with a better driver. Possibly the 2012/2013 Lotus' and possibly the 2014 Williams too

I think its better for a drivers prospects though to thrash another driver, regardless. If Mclaren were to keep Vandoorne as there number 1 they will always have the knowledge that there is possibly a couple of more tenths in the car which can prompt them to drop him and look for the next Alonso. We know for certain that Vandoorne is not operating at the highest level, whilst we do not know that about Leclerc. Leclerc could be as quick as Alonso or even slower than Vandoorne. But there is some mystery to it. In F1 you are "safe" until proven not to be quick or the quickest.


I beleive you have to give a driver like Vettel some slack after dominating the previous rules totally, I dont belive we have seen such dominance from any driver off this generation like he did at the end of 2013.

Are there any driver out there who hasn't been beaten over a season?


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)


Well, before being partnered with Mansell, Piquet never had any good teammates after his rookie season. Giving him much merit for beating drivers like Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, Fabi, etc. would be very rose-tinted. And even the strongest among his teammates at Brabham, guys like Patrese and Winkelhock, hardly belong to the top driver category.

Well Lauda thought very highly of him when they were partnered. And he was consistently viewed s one of the best in the early 80s. Indeed, many rated him as THE best, including Prost IIRC. To be fair to him Piquet did tend to annihilate his team mates and it's not his fault who he gets partnered with. But anyway, it was just for purposes of illustration. Don't want to derail the thread with it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
Piquet's problem is that he spent his best years in, effectively, one car teams. It makes it extremely difficult to judge how good he was in the early 80s.

Back on topic.

Who of the current grid would be the best team mate to partner in a rookie season?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 2583
Location: England
mikeyg123 wrote:
Piquet's problem is that he spent his best years in, effectively, one car teams. It makes it extremely difficult to judge how good he was in the early 80s.

Back on topic.

Who of the current grid would be the best team mate to partner in a rookie season?


Grosjean for my money. Sticks it in the wall/makes mistakes often enough to easily even up qualy over the season if you are genuinely slower, and enough to make the scoreboard look a lot closer than it probably should be if you are slower. If you are faster than him, and more consistent, then it'll just exaggerate the advantage further, something I believe Magnussen is currently benefitting from.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2018: {Rookie Year}
Current positon: 1st | 3 Podiums | 1 Win


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2033
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)


Well, before being partnered with Mansell, Piquet never had any good teammates after his rookie season. Giving him much merit for beating drivers like Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, Fabi, etc. would be very rose-tinted. And even the strongest among his teammates at Brabham, guys like Patrese and Winkelhock, hardly belong to the top driver category.

Well Lauda thought very highly of him when they were partnered. And he was consistently viewed s one of the best in the early 80s. Indeed, many rated him as THE best, including Prost IIRC. To be fair to him Piquet did tend to annihilate his team mates and it's not his fault who he gets partnered with. But anyway, it was just for purposes of illustration. Don't want to derail the thread with it


Most drivers back then would have / have annihilated the likes of Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, etc. Compared to them Ericsson looks like superstar.
:lol:

But yes, Piquet was overrated for quite some time in the 80s.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23910
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Johnson wrote:


There is no slack if you want to be considered in the discussion of the very best of all time. Senna and Schumacher (pre comeback) had never been out classed by a team mate. Senna lost on points to Prost but he actually thrashed him on track that year. Likewise, Alonso has never been out classed by a team mate. Hamilton has dipped up and down in terms of race craft but never been slower than a team mate over a season either. I am not picking out at Vettel and he has plenty of time to redeem 2014 (especially if Ricciardo comes to Ferrari) but for now he beaten two veterans and lost to a young fast driver. No doubt he is a great driver, its just a question of how great.

Domination is just a product of car and team mate. Vettel dominated Webber in the previous rules in the best car. That's all you can really say. Similar for any driver that dominated. Schumacher had the luxury of Barrichello in the other car as did Mansell with Patrese.
As for the run at the end of 2013, Rosberg also won 7 races straight and Hamilton did 8 wins in 10 (2x 2nds) too. But again, the car and both did those runs when the team mate was off form / already won the title.
That's true, but circumstances play a part in that. Piquet had never been outclassed by a team mate before 1987, but that only took place after he had his massive accident, which clearly had an impact on him. Yet he's rarely in the discussions of GOATs, despite Prost referencing him as the driver he most admired in F1 before he joined.

It's possible my memory is failing me and I'm viewing through rose-tinted spectacles, but I really don't remember either Senna or Schumacher (pre-comeback) having off days or even seasons, the likes of which both Hamilton and Vettel have had.

edit: and, interestingly, Prost is usually in GOAT discussions, despite being thrashed on-track by Senna, as you say. I think standards can sometimes be flexible ;)


Well, before being partnered with Mansell, Piquet never had any good teammates after his rookie season. Giving him much merit for beating drivers like Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, Fabi, etc. would be very rose-tinted. And even the strongest among his teammates at Brabham, guys like Patrese and Winkelhock, hardly belong to the top driver category.

Well Lauda thought very highly of him when they were partnered. And he was consistently viewed s one of the best in the early 80s. Indeed, many rated him as THE best, including Prost IIRC. To be fair to him Piquet did tend to annihilate his team mates and it's not his fault who he gets partnered with. But anyway, it was just for purposes of illustration. Don't want to derail the thread with it


Most drivers back then would have / have annihilated the likes of Rebaque, Zunino, Hesnault, etc. Compared to them Ericsson looks like superstar.
:lol:

But yes, Piquet was overrated for quite some time in the 80s.

you forgot to add "IMO" there :uhoh:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
mikeyg123 wrote:
Piquet's problem is that he spent his best years in, effectively, one car teams. It makes it extremely difficult to judge how good he was in the early 80s.

Back on topic.

Who of the current grid would be the best team mate to partner in a rookie season?

Ericsson and Stroll would be the easiest to beat.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Piquet's problem is that he spent his best years in, effectively, one car teams. It makes it extremely difficult to judge how good he was in the early 80s.

Back on topic.

Who of the current grid would be the best team mate to partner in a rookie season?

Ericsson and Stroll would be the easiest to beat.


Trouble with that is beating them lacks kudos. Not so much of a problem if the cars good and you score regular points but more of an issue if you're at the back.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 244
The fact is that LeClerk has generally been closer to Alonso on the track than Vandoorne has this season.

Stoffel was probably one of the most experienced F1 rookie to enter the sport since the 90s. I wouldn't have expected him to beat Alonso, but he should have run him closer more often. He hasn't looked 'special' against a very good yardstick.

Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The fact is that LeClerk has generally been closer to Alonso on the track than Vandoorne has this season.

Stoffel was probably one of the most experienced F1 rookie to enter the sport since the 90s. I wouldn't have expected him to beat Alonso, but he should have run him closer more often. He hasn't looked 'special' against a very good yardstick.

Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.


Perhaps the Sauber is better than the Mclaren ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5899
Location: Michigan, USA
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1473
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


How many drivers on the grid are worse than Ericsson?

Leclerc is a rookie. Even average drivers almost always beat rookies.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3408
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.


That's 3rd worst on the current grid. That's a fair way below average.

In all seriousness I don't have an issue with Ericsson. It's just frustrating that he's still in F1 whilst better drivers have been and gone. I think he's probably the worst driver that has lasted more than 3 seasons this decade?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 1473
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.


That's 3rd worst on the current grid. That's a fair way below average.

In all seriousness I don't have an issue with Ericsson. It's just frustrating that he's still in F1 whilst better drivers have been and gone. I think he's probably the worst driver that has lasted more than 3 seasons this decade?


If you are talking about just below average out of the drivers on the current grid, then yes, maybe I can agree. But I think several of the worse drivers have since gone. And that doesn't change how good he is. I think he started off reasonably strong this season and is just having a bit of a dip at the moment. I think I agree with kleefton. He is decent enough to be on the grid, but a bit below average. Just many of the worse drivers have now gone, making him look worse than he is. I think he looked to have a better season last year for the ability of his car then Maldonado ever did. To me anyway. Then I also think he is better than Gutierrez. Both have gone now. So yeas, he is near the back of the current grid, but still don't think he's a bad driver like many seem to think. Despite Spain being a big gap to his team mate, he did some really good defending there which it seems few respect him for that. Then his good start in Australia was probably forgotten because he had to retire pretty soon after.

Don't think I should go on about this too long as people get fed up with me going on about Ericsson. But I don't get frustrated that he's still here. I think he's good enough to deserve a seat. And on top of that, his money is a bonus. But I can agree that there are drivers that have gone that did look better than him. Though Nasr certainly didn't at the end of 2016.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14181
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
If you are talking about just below average out of the drivers on the current grid, then yes, maybe I can agree. But I think several of the worse drivers have since gone. And that doesn't change how good he is. I think he started off reasonably strong this season and is just having a bit of a dip at the moment. I think I agree with kleefton. He is decent enough to be on the grid, but a bit below average. Just many of the worse drivers have now gone, making him look worse than he is. I think he looked to have a better season last year for the ability of his car then Maldonado ever did. To me anyway. Then I also think he is better than Gutierrez. Both have gone now. So yeas, he is near the back of the current grid, but still don't think he's a bad driver like many seem to think. Despite Spain being a big gap to his team mate, he did some really good defending there which it seems few respect him for that. Then his good start in Australia was probably forgotten because he had to retire pretty soon after.

Don't think I should go on about this too long as people get fed up with me going on about Ericsson. But I don't get frustrated that he's still here. I think he's good enough to deserve a seat. And on top of that, his money is a bonus. But I can agree that there are drivers that have gone that did look better than him. Though Nasr certainly didn't at the end of 2016.


It's difficult to say he deserves a seat when betters drivers have lost theirs and are still of F1 age...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5899
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.

That's 3rd worst on the current grid. That's a fair way below average.

In all seriousness I don't have an issue with Ericsson. It's just frustrating that he's still in F1 whilst better drivers have been and gone. I think he's probably the worst driver that has lasted more than 3 seasons this decade?

This is another example of the debate on what 'average' means in the context of F1 drivers. One meaning would be that an average driver is in the middle of the existing pack, e.g. that there are 9-10 better drivers and 9-10 worse drivers.

The other meaning - and the one that I feel most people are actually intending to use when they call a driver average - would be that an average driver is at the average skill level for an F1-level driver, meaning nothing about their position on the current grid. It's hard to reduce it to numbers, but let's say that for example over all the drivers who have raced in F1, the largest segment of them are approximately +0.500 off the pace of the front runners. That would make that the average for an F1 driver, even if we might happen to have a grid that tends toward the strong end at the moment (which I think we do).

So in terms of placing Ericsson on the current grid, I'd say he's probably in the lower 30% or so. But compared to the body of F1 drivers over time, he's probably right around average. Good enough to hold down a seat somewhere down the grid, not good enough to make much of an impression. A Sutil type driver.

(For the record, I would put Ericsson higher than Hartley, Stroll and Sirotkin, and pretty much inseparable with Grosjean, Magnussen)

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Piquet's problem is that he spent his best years in, effectively, one car teams. It makes it extremely difficult to judge how good he was in the early 80s.

Back on topic.

Who of the current grid would be the best team mate to partner in a rookie season?

Ericsson and Stroll would be the easiest to beat.


Trouble with that is beating them lacks kudos. Not so much of a problem if the cars good and you score regular points but more of an issue if you're at the back.

It's the level of the beating that stands out, that's why Alonso stood out in a Minardi, Bianchi in the Sauber against Chilton and now Leclerc also in a Sauber against Ericsson.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.

I disagree I wouldn't be placing Ericsson as one of the top 20 single seater drivers in the world, all things being equal Wehrlein should have been kept by Sauber and not Ericsson but he doesn't have Ericsson's level of backing that let's face it got Ericsson into F1 in the first place.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.


That's 3rd worst on the current grid. That's a fair way below average.

In all seriousness I don't have an issue with Ericsson. It's just frustrating that he's still in F1 whilst better drivers have been and gone. I think he's probably the worst driver that has lasted more than 3 seasons this decade?


If you are talking about just below average out of the drivers on the current grid, then yes, maybe I can agree. But I think several of the worse drivers have since gone. And that doesn't change how good he is. I think he started off reasonably strong this season and is just having a bit of a dip at the moment. I think I agree with kleefton. He is decent enough to be on the grid, but a bit below average. Just many of the worse drivers have now gone, making him look worse than he is. I think he looked to have a better season last year for the ability of his car then Maldonado ever did. To me anyway. Then I also think he is better than Gutierrez. Both have gone now. So yeas, he is near the back of the current grid, but still don't think he's a bad driver like many seem to think. Despite Spain being a big gap to his team mate, he did some really good defending there which it seems few respect him for that. Then his good start in Australia was probably forgotten because he had to retire pretty soon after.

Don't think I should go on about this too long as people get fed up with me going on about Ericsson. But I don't get frustrated that he's still here. I think he's good enough to deserve a seat. And on top of that, his money is a bonus. But I can agree that there are drivers that have gone that did look better than him. Though Nasr certainly didn't at the end of 2016.

Ericsson appeared to start out reasonably strong because Leclerc was still getting up to speed.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.

That's 3rd worst on the current grid. That's a fair way below average.

In all seriousness I don't have an issue with Ericsson. It's just frustrating that he's still in F1 whilst better drivers have been and gone. I think he's probably the worst driver that has lasted more than 3 seasons this decade?

This is another example of the debate on what 'average' means in the context of F1 drivers. One meaning would be that an average driver is in the middle of the existing pack, e.g. that there are 9-10 better drivers and 9-10 worse drivers.

The other meaning - and the one that I feel most people are actually intending to use when they call a driver average - would be that an average driver is at the average skill level for an F1-level driver, meaning nothing about their position on the current grid. It's hard to reduce it to numbers, but let's say that for example over all the drivers who have raced in F1, the largest segment of them are approximately +0.500 off the pace of the front runners. That would make that the average for an F1 driver, even if we might happen to have a grid that tends toward the strong end at the moment (which I think we do).

So in terms of placing Ericsson on the current grid, I'd say he's probably in the lower 30% or so. But compared to the body of F1 drivers over time, he's probably right around average. Good enough to hold down a seat somewhere down the grid, not good enough to make much of an impression. A Sutil type driver.

(For the record, I would put Ericsson higher than Hartley, Stroll and Sirotkin, and pretty much inseparable with Grosjean, Magnussen)

I think you are overrating Ericsson.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 5899
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
I disagree I wouldn't be placing Ericsson as one of the top 20 single seater drivers in the world, all things being equal Wehrlein should have been kept by Sauber and not Ericsson but he doesn't have Ericsson's level of backing that let's face it got Ericsson into F1 in the first place.

Neither would I, but I think it's an idealistic stretch to say that the 20 drivers in F1 are the 20 best single-seater drivers in the world. They're not, and I doubt there's even been a time when they were. I think there's an easy dozen drivers scattered across other series who are likely better than the lower half of the F1 grid. The top section of the F1 grid - the Big Five at least - are probably the best single-seater drivers in the world, and maybe even the best drivers in the world bar none. But that isn't true of the whole grid.

As for Wehrlein, he was barely - if at all - better than Ericsson. If Ericsson doesn't belong on the grid, Wehrlein doesn't either. Despite all the belief Mercedes seemed to have in him, there were never any indications that Wehrlein was more than average at the F1 level himself.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3408
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Ericsson is very ordinary. But he ran Wehrlein very closely in qualifying last year and Pascal wasn't a rookie. LeClerk has beaten him by some substantial margins in his rookie year.

I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.

I disagree I wouldn't be placing Ericsson as one of the top 20 single seater drivers in the world, all things being equal Wehrlein should have been kept by Sauber and not Ericsson but he doesn't have Ericsson's level of backing that let's face it got Ericsson into F1 in the first place.


So you think Wherlein is much better than him? I think they are evenly matched, as proven by their tenure together. But when you are talking about the top 20 drivers in the world, I'm not so sure Ericsson belongs either, but what I meant to say is that there are much worse drivers than him that have been in F1. I agree with what Exediron said about how people may interpret the term "average". He may not be average on the current grid, but for F1 level over the years he is not that bad. That's all I was saying.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I disagree I wouldn't be placing Ericsson as one of the top 20 single seater drivers in the world, all things being equal Wehrlein should have been kept by Sauber and not Ericsson but he doesn't have Ericsson's level of backing that let's face it got Ericsson into F1 in the first place.

Neither would I, but I think it's an idealistic stretch to say that the 20 drivers in F1 are the 20 best single-seater drivers in the world. They're not, and I doubt there's even been a time when they were. I think there's an easy dozen drivers scattered across other series who are likely better than the lower half of the F1 grid. The top section of the F1 grid - the Big Five at least - are probably the best single-seater drivers in the world, and maybe even the best drivers in the world bar none. But that isn't true of the whole grid.

As for Wehrlein, he was barely - if at all - better than Ericsson. If Ericsson doesn't belong on the grid, Wehrlein doesn't either. Despite all the belief Mercedes seemed to have in him, there were never any indications that Wehrlein was more than average at the F1 level himself.

It doesn't matter how much better Wehrlein was than Ericsson it's merely an example of Ericsson being kept in F1 for economic reasons whilst the better Wehrlein has gone back to DTM I believe?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 27904
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I'm no Ericsson fan, but I do actually think he's underrated. He was terrible in 2014, agreed, but since then he's obviously improved massively. People need to readjust their impression of him IMO.

I think Ericsson started out this year well, but has just been having a bad run of qualifying sessions recently. Often making mistakes on his lap or not getting a clean run. I don't think the substantial margins of Leclerc beating him in qualifying are a very accurate indication of how much better Leclerc is. You certainly can say Leclerc is significantly better given it is his rookie season, but I still think Ericsson is under rated. There have only been 3/7 races that he's been beaten by quite a margin. Then in Canada, Ericsson had to do 69 laps on one set of tyres due to having to pit on the first lap so maybe the gap between them in the race doesn't reflect the true difference. However, I still expect it will have been a similar difference to Spain.

So If people are rating Leclerc so highly, I think Ericsson needs a bit more respect. He hasn't been that bad overall. If people think he's terrible, then basically a terrible driver has been close to and sometimes has beaten Leclerc.

I think Ericsson is just OK. Much better than he used to be. Leclerc is already looking better than him and I do expect him to keep getting better. Ericsson does seem to be having a bad run in qualifying. Given that he basically matched Wehrlein, I do think he will be able to get back up to speed and sometimes run close to Leclerc and occasionally beat him. But I do still think Ericsson is worse than the majority of the grid. But I just feel some are too harsh on him. In a Sauber, it is going to be tough judging how good Leclerc is when against him.


Ericsson is probably slightly below average for F1. I think hes definitely better than Stroll, Palmer, Chilton, Hartley or the usual backmarker types of drivers. He is good enough to make the grid imo, while the other guys I mentioned arent.

I disagree I wouldn't be placing Ericsson as one of the top 20 single seater drivers in the world, all things being equal Wehrlein should have been kept by Sauber and not Ericsson but he doesn't have Ericsson's level of backing that let's face it got Ericsson into F1 in the first place.


So you think Wherlein is much better than him? I think they are evenly matched, as proven by their tenure together. But when you are talking about the top 20 drivers in the world, I'm not so sure Ericsson belongs either, but what I meant to say is that there are much worse drivers than him that have been in F1. I agree with what Exediron said about how people may interpret the term "average". He may not be average on the current grid, but for F1 level over the years he is not that bad. That's all I was saying.

Well in that regards F1 driver standards are higher than what they have ever been, there are no bad drivers as such.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alienturnedhuman and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group