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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:39 am 
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Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:10 am 
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Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)


Not really. There was a good wave 00-02.

The drivers from that wave came in and pretty beat most of the top end of the grid from the generation before. Villeneuve and Barrichello got beat by Button, Coulthard got beat by Kimi, Fissichella got beat by Alonso etc.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:38 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The drivers from that wave came in and pretty beat most of the top end of the grid from the generation before. Violence and Barrichello got beat by Button, Coulthard got beat by Kimi, Fissichella got beat by Alonso etc.

Violence? Auto-correct of Villeneuve?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:56 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The drivers from that wave came in and pretty beat most of the top end of the grid from the generation before. Violence and Barrichello got beat by Button, Coulthard got beat by Kimi, Fissichella got beat by Alonso etc.

Violence? Auto-correct of Villeneuve?


:lol: :lol: Corrected!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:05 am 
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Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Yeah that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Of course he had competition and was challenged. He won 7 titles. How may of them ended in 1-2s with his team mate? He had to fight for most of them and the way people talk it's like he could just cruise around and take it easy. People seem to forget it's not a spec series and drivers are fighting other cars as much as they are other drivers. And it's not so long ago that people were praising Mika Hakkinen but now all of a sudden he doesn't count?

It's arguable that all but two of the titles Schumacher won may not have been won by a Benetton/Ferrari driver had Schumacher not been the driver in their car. He made the difference to the team and that's the reason he's considered a legend. In 1994 he only failed to finish 1st on two occasions when he finished a race, and then he finished 2nd. Yet when he had to sit out four races his team mates only just scraped two third places between them. The Benetton would have looked like a midfield car if almost any other driver would have been in it and it's doubtful they would have won any titles without him. I'm wondering whether people who dismiss his achievements actually ever watched him race?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:16 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Yeah that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Of course he had competition and was challenged. He won 7 titles. How may of them ended in 1-2s with his team mate? He had to fight for most of them and the way people talk it's like he could just cruise around and take it easy. People seem to forget it's not a spec series and drivers are fighting other cars as much as they are other drivers. And it's not so long ago that people were praising Mika Hakkinen but now all of a sudden he doesn't count?

It's arguable that all but two of the titles Schumacher won may not have been won by a Benetton/Ferrari driver had Schumacher not been the driver in their car. He made the difference to the team and that's the reason he's considered a legend. In 1994 he only failed to finish 1st on two occasions when he finished a race, and then he finished 2nd. Yet when he had to sit out four races his team mates only just scraped two third places between them. The Benetton would have looked like a midfield car if almost any other driver would have been in it and it's doubtful they would have won any titles without him. I'm wondering whether people who dismiss his achievements actually ever watched him race?


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:44 pm 
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I agree, Zoue & Mikey

It seems this comes up 3-4 times a year. You just responded better than I did.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)

That's no different from you saying that the drivers of today are not as good as the drivers of the past in particular the drivers of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)

That's no different from you saying that the drivers of today are not as good as the drivers of the past in particular the drivers of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

???? Comparing Apples to Oranges, poker.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Schumacher had to overcome a lot of fast Newey cars and I suppose Massa and Rosberg were his most modern teammates and in the twilight of his career long past his youthful peak he did well against an almost WDC and a WDC who beat Hamilton to get it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Yeah that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Of course he had competition and was challenged. He won 7 titles. How may of them ended in 1-2s with his team mate? He had to fight for most of them and the way people talk it's like he could just cruise around and take it easy. People seem to forget it's not a spec series and drivers are fighting other cars as much as they are other drivers. And it's not so long ago that people were praising Mika Hakkinen but now all of a sudden he doesn't count?

It's arguable that all but two of the titles Schumacher won may not have been won by a Benetton/Ferrari driver had Schumacher not been the driver in their car. He made the difference to the team and that's the reason he's considered a legend. In 1994 he only failed to finish 1st on two occasions when he finished a race, and then he finished 2nd. Yet when he had to sit out four races his team mates only just scraped two third places between them. The Benetton would have looked like a midfield car if almost any other driver would have been in it and it's doubtful they would have won any titles without him. I'm wondering whether people who dismiss his achievements actually ever watched him race?


But what did these teammates achieve elsewhere? Many of them would have made every car like a midfield car - which is exactly why they became his teammates.

But he did have competition by other teams, of course. Except of 2001, 2002 and 2004.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:11 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Yeah that's utter nonsense I'm afraid. Of course he had competition and was challenged. He won 7 titles. How may of them ended in 1-2s with his team mate? He had to fight for most of them and the way people talk it's like he could just cruise around and take it easy. People seem to forget it's not a spec series and drivers are fighting other cars as much as they are other drivers. And it's not so long ago that people were praising Mika Hakkinen but now all of a sudden he doesn't count?

It's arguable that all but two of the titles Schumacher won may not have been won by a Benetton/Ferrari driver had Schumacher not been the driver in their car. He made the difference to the team and that's the reason he's considered a legend. In 1994 he only failed to finish 1st on two occasions when he finished a race, and then he finished 2nd. Yet when he had to sit out four races his team mates only just scraped two third places between them. The Benetton would have looked like a midfield car if almost any other driver would have been in it and it's doubtful they would have won any titles without him. I'm wondering whether people who dismiss his achievements actually ever watched him race?


It's not remotely utter nonsense. Mika isn't remotely on the level of a Nadal or a Djokovic. As for the rest of your post, I don't disagree at all with it. Michael had to work for it and was a great driver etc. etc. etc. and was clearly ahead of his competition. In tennis the ongoing era has had 3 mega legends battling for over a decade. This simply wasn't the case in Schumacher's era. Senna tragically died and Schumacher caught Alonso toward the end. Mika was very good but not on the highest level. The current era was largely wasted because Alonso was in a rubbish car for many years.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:17 pm 
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Blake wrote:
I agree, Zoue & Mikey

It seems this comes up 3-4 times a year. You just responded better than I did.



It was responded with a bunch of stuff I agree with which is some tangent which didn't deal with the comparison I was making.

That's it.

:thumbdown:

I suppose your response would have been equally as tangential. The only disagreement related to the comparison might be on the worth of Hakkinen - is he potentially a top-5 ATG? I'd say not.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:22 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I guess some people just don't like to see greatness?


Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)


Missed this.

No, I suggested he didn't have the strongest competition, which is a far cry from saying he had no competition or supposing he was an average talent who lucked into great cars or something similar. He inherited a void, a desolate wasteland, and dominated it along with Newey. The battle with someone on his level ended before it really got started, and when he came up against Alonso he lost.

It's not like I think Schumacher was bad or that he isn't either the 1st or 2nd best in the history of the sport.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I remember the thread, and I liked it. Here's some of mine (including one that's the same as yours, and one that's quite different):

1. I also don't notice the halo anymore.

2. I'm not at all bothered by the engine noise, and in fact I think the old engines were too loud.

3. Vettel is not a comparable driver to Hamilton, and would fair little better than Bottas if they were teammates.

4. Formula One is a team championship, not a driver championship. Only team stats have true validity, as driver stats are wholly dependent on teams.

5. I'm tired of all three top teams.

I'll probably come up with some more later, but those are good for a start.


How might you compare Vettel to N.Rosberg?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I remember the thread, and I liked it. Here's some of mine (including one that's the same as yours, and one that's quite different):

1. I also don't notice the halo anymore.

2. I'm not at all bothered by the engine noise, and in fact I think the old engines were too loud.

3. Vettel is not a comparable driver to Hamilton, and would fair little better than Bottas if they were teammates.

4. Formula One is a team championship, not a driver championship. Only team stats have true validity, as driver stats are wholly dependent on teams.

5. I'm tired of all three top teams.

I'll probably come up with some more later, but those are good for a start.

How might you compare Vettel to N.Rosberg?

I think Vettel and Rosberg were very similar drivers: good qualifiers with lacking racecraft. I would expect them to be evenly matched as teammates.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:12 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:
Frenk Biber wrote:
Hell no, but there is room for more than one. I think Messi is the greatest footballer but I am glad that his position is at least challenged by Ronaldo.


In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)

That's no different from you saying that the drivers of today are not as good as the drivers of the past in particular the drivers of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

???? Comparing Apples to Oranges, poker.

Same thing when looking to compare drivers from different eras.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:06 am 
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Whatever you say, poker...

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Invade wrote:

In tennis there are 3 legends competing against each other, which has been the case for more than a decade. Who did Schumacher have who was even remotely on the level of Nadal or Djokovic.

Answer: Nobody, for the bulk of his career.

Oh, here we go again.... The Schumi had no competition line of reasoning. All the really good drivers dropped off the
Face of the earth when he got to F1 and returned when Lewis & Seb arrived. Th racing God's work in devious ways.
;)

That's no different from you saying that the drivers of today are not as good as the drivers of the past in particular the drivers of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

???? Comparing Apples to Oranges, poker.

Same thing when looking to compare drivers from different eras.

Not really. Apples and oranges


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:53 am 
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I was going to add that:

- Vettel can't get into a scrap with Hamilton without him spinning the car

But then again I'm not sure it's an unpopular opinion, it happens all the time lately!


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:58 am 
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Here’s another one:

Alonso was extremely good at qualifying an average or poor car higher than it should be. But when pole position was a serious possibility, he was a bit of a choker.

Bahrain 2010
Germany 2010
Canada 2011
Hungary 2011

That’s something I noticed as I was watching old races from 2010 and 2011.


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:31 pm 
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Also,

Verstappen is literally the only thing that is currently keeping Formula 1 interesting. I’m not a huge Max fan, but I can’t even imagine F1 without him right now.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:24 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Here’s another one:

Alonso was extremely good at qualifying an average or poor car higher than it should be. But when pole position was a serious possibility, he was a bit of a choker.

Bahrain 2010
Germany 2010
Canada 2011
Hungary 2011

That’s something I noticed as I was watching old races from 2010 and 2011.

I'm not sure I'd classify Germany 2010 as a bit of a choker. He was 0.002s off pole and comfortably beat his team mate by half a second. In Canada 2011 he had the biggest improvement of any of the front runners in Q3 (over Q2) so again, don't see that as choking in particular. I'll give you Bahrain 2010 but I'm not sure there's any conclusive evidence that the car was capable of pole in Hungary 2010. So I don't think 1-2 examples shows him as a choker in all fairness. Hamilton has missed out on three consecutive poles before Monaco in a car that was definitely capable and I don't think anyone would call him a qualifying choker.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 7:50 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Also,

Verstappen is literally the only thing that is currently keeping Formula 1 interesting. I’m not a huge Max fan, but I can’t even imagine F1 without him right now.

It's like Montoya in the early 00s. He added vibrancy and flair to an otherwise dull demolition by one man/team

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 1:14 am 
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Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Here’s another one:

Alonso was extremely good at qualifying an average or poor car higher than it should be. But when pole position was a serious possibility, he was a bit of a choker.

Bahrain 2010
Germany 2010
Canada 2011
Hungary 2011

That’s something I noticed as I was watching old races from 2010 and 2011.

I'm not sure I'd classify Germany 2010 as a bit of a choker. He was 0.002s off pole and comfortably beat his team mate by half a second. In Canada 2011 he had the biggest improvement of any of the front runners in Q3 (over Q2) so again, don't see that as choking in particular. I'll give you Bahrain 2010 but I'm not sure there's any conclusive evidence that the car was capable of pole in Hungary 2010. So I don't think 1-2 examples shows him as a choker in all fairness. Hamilton has missed out on three consecutive poles before Monaco in a car that was definitely capable and I don't think anyone would call him a qualifying choker.

Germany 2010 - Ferrari was fastest throughout the weekend apart from Q3 where Vettel pulled something special out of the hat. His gap to Webber was even bigger than Alonso’s gap to Massa.

Hungary 2011 - Alonso fastest in Q1, Q2 but then doesn’t even improve in Q3 while everyone ahead of him improves by a huge margin. He didn’t have any technical issues, he just messed up both laps.

There are some drivers, like Ricciardo, who are perhaps not as quick as Alonso over one lap, but extremely lethal when pole position is up for grabs.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 6:27 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Here’s another one:

Alonso was extremely good at qualifying an average or poor car higher than it should be. But when pole position was a serious possibility, he was a bit of a choker.

Bahrain 2010
Germany 2010
Canada 2011
Hungary 2011

That’s something I noticed as I was watching old races from 2010 and 2011.

I'm not sure I'd classify Germany 2010 as a bit of a choker. He was 0.002s off pole and comfortably beat his team mate by half a second. In Canada 2011 he had the biggest improvement of any of the front runners in Q3 (over Q2) so again, don't see that as choking in particular. I'll give you Bahrain 2010 but I'm not sure there's any conclusive evidence that the car was capable of pole in Hungary 2010. So I don't think 1-2 examples shows him as a choker in all fairness. Hamilton has missed out on three consecutive poles before Monaco in a car that was definitely capable and I don't think anyone would call him a qualifying choker.

Germany 2010 - Ferrari was fastest throughout the weekend apart from Q3 where Vettel pulled something special out of the hat. His gap to Webber was even bigger than Alonso’s gap to Massa.

Hungary 2011 - Alonso fastest in Q1, Q2 but then doesn’t even improve in Q3 while everyone ahead of him improves by a huge margin. He didn’t have any technical issues, he just messed up both laps.

There are some drivers, like Ricciardo, who are perhaps not as quick as Alonso over one lap, but extremely lethal when pole position is up for grabs.

You said it yourself - Vettel pulled out a special lap in Germany 2010. That's not evidence of Alonso choking to be fair.

I still think Hungary 2011 isn't evidence of choking, either. Alonso improved by 7 tenths while both Hamilton and Vettel improved by 8 tenths and Massa by 6 tenths. Without knowing how balls to the wire Alonso was, or indeed the others were, in Q2 it's a stretch to say that he messed up in any way in Q3 and his improvement is on a par with the others. I think that's looking for fault tbh.

I'm just saying that the theory he chokes when pole is in sight isn't really supported by evidence of four races where at least two of them are highly questionable. I don't think it's a significant enough sample to base such a conclusion on and as already pointed out you can take at least four races from Hamilton's career where he should have got pole but didn't and few if any would say he's a qualifying choker.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:01 pm 
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Frenk Biber wrote:
-Michael Schumacher is the Lance Armstrong of F1.


I totally understand how disliked Schumacher is, but really? Comparing him with Armstrong? That's an unnecessary low blow.


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