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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31122
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

The idea of an unofficial triple crown has always been around. At least since the '60s. He hasn't invented it

Also, he never said that a driver must prove themselves in different categories. He quite openly said go win 8 F1 titles or go win motorsport's biggest races. And there is a current Mercedes F1 driver who could well achieve 8 titles, which would fit Alonso's definition of being the greatest

Anyway winning the Indy 500 is one of the greatest achievements in motorsport, regardless of your opinion on the race

It's been around but hardly ever mentioned now with Alonso it's supposed to have some kind of mythical importance.

You actually just repeat what I was saying he looks to equate winning 8 WDC's in the same sentence as winning all the major one off races.

In respect to winning the Indy500 I'm viewing it as he sees it, he himself has said that he is competing in the Indy500 primarily to obtain the triple crown, that's the main goal and like I said if he does win it don't be surprised not to see him there again.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31122
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 16th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15020
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.


Surely Alonso, as someone who has won multiple WDC's would be in a position to judge how the triple crown would rank alongside those for him? I think it's personal thing tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7332
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.


Quite a bold statement I think. Laughable?

One could argue that winning across multiple different disciplines probably carries more weight than winning just in one. Surtees is remembered as the only F1 WDC that won motorcycle titles too.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 772
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?


This is not how it works but ok.
They were not teammates though.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Posts: 15020
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31122
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.


Surely Alonso, as someone who has won multiple WDC's would be in a position to judge how the triple crown would rank alongside those for him? I think it's personal thing tbh.

It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 16th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15020
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 31122
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.


Quite a bold statement I think. Laughable?

One could argue that winning across multiple different disciplines probably carries more weight than winning just in one. Surtees is remembered as the only F1 WDC that won motorcycle titles too.

What Surtees did was different, bike racing is not car racing and that was truly great, actually what Surtess did was far greater than this triple crown but look how little he is feted as little as the triple crown was feted perhaps?

Now with Alonso it's supposed to be this great achievement that hardly anyone really cared for before so if he ever achieves it we are to revel in his greatness.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:48 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?


This is not how it works but ok.
They were not teammates though.

No they weren't team mates. But it was still an achievement


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.


Quite a bold statement I think. Laughable?

One could argue that winning across multiple different disciplines probably carries more weight than winning just in one. Surtees is remembered as the only F1 WDC that won motorcycle titles too.

What Surtees did was different, bike racing is not car racing and that was truly great, actually what Surtess did was far greater than this triple crown but look how little he is feted as little as the triple crown was feted perhaps?

Now with Alonso it's supposed to be this great achievement that hardly anyone really cared for before so if he ever achieves it we are to revel in his greatness.

You have indeed a very unique way to look at life. No one asked you to revel in Alonso's greatness. You can go about your life not giving two sh*ts if you like. Others will find this achievement very interesting. That's all


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

It's not a standard topic of conversation, true. Still don't see how that diminishes it, though. I remember when Mansell won in the US it was talked about at the time as a really impressive feat to have won F1 and Indy but it's not like people bring it up all the time now either.

You still call it mythical but it's not a myth. Why do Alonso's speeches bother you so much?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

When I was growing up Graham Hill had been a part of two unique things that set him apart from the others - he won the "triple crown" of motorsport and he was part of the only father-son duo to win the F1 championship. Now only one of those things is unique to him

He also won two F1 titles but he has not been feted to the same degree for those

And in Graham Hill's own opinion the triple crown included the F1 World Championship, not the Monaco Grand Prix. So he also appeared to set himself apart from the rest by putting weight behind his own unique set of achievements

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.

It was the greatest Le Mans win though, wasn't it (according to Alonso himself!!)?? :D :D

You are right mostly, but I'll pose the question that mikeyg put forward. It wasn't his first choice, but at this stage what do you expect him to do? Become a commentator or chase a great motorsport achievement while he still can?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:29 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.

It was the greatest Le Mans win though, wasn't it (according to Alonso himself!!)?? :D :D

You are right mostly, but I'll pose the question that mikeyg put forward. It wasn't his first choice, but at this stage what do you expect him to do? Become a commentator or chase a great motorsport achievement while he still can?

I completely agree. I have no problem with Alonso's thinking on this. It's McLaren's thinking that I find suspect.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.

It was the greatest Le Mans win though, wasn't it (according to Alonso himself!!)?? :D :D

You are right mostly, but I'll pose the question that mikeyg put forward. It wasn't his first choice, but at this stage what do you expect him to do? Become a commentator or chase a great motorsport achievement while he still can?

I completely agree. I have no problem with Alonso's thinking on this. It's McLaren's thinking that I find suspect.

McLaren was involved in Indy from their birth, maybe they want to continue this legacy in these dark times. Hence the orange colour again in my mind...


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


I would say most people rate Alonso above Lauda anyway? n terms of difficulty it depends on the manor of the title. I don't think Hamilton's first two Merc titles were more unlikely or harder than winning both Le Mans and the Indy 500.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


I would say most people rate Alonso above Lauda anyway? n terms of difficulty it depends on the manor of the title. I don't think Hamilton's first two Merc titles were more unlikely or harder than winning both Le Mans and the Indy 500.

Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


But that's not what I said is it? I said it's more difficult for Alonso to win both Le Mans and the Indy 500 than it was for Hamilton to win the WDC in 2014/15 when he had literally one driver in opposition. Not that he'd swap it, not that it would take more effort, not that it would be seen as a bigger achievement.

Perhaps if you look at what I actually say rather than what you seem to think I mean you may not disagree quite so much?

But regardless, Alonso can't win more championships in F1 so what is he supposed to do? I don't understand why any motor racing fan would criticise what he is trying to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


But that's not what I said is it? I said it's more difficult for Alonso to win both Le Mans and the Indy 500 than it was for Hamilton to win the WDC in 2014/15 when he had literally one driver in opposition. Not that he'd swap it, not that it would take more effort, not that it would be seen as a bigger achievement.

Perhaps if you look at what I actually say rather than what you seem to think I mean you may not disagree quite so much?

But regardless, Alonso can't win more championships in F1 so what is he supposed to do? I don't understand why any motor racing fan would criticise what he is trying to do.

As far as this last bit; I agree with you. I don't have a problem with what Alonso has chosen to pursue and I think it is a way for him to still compete and be productive in the world of motor sport. The two things I don't agree with are: 1. The idea that these achievements are the equivalent of WDCs and: 2. The idea that this actually makes sense for McLaren in the big picture.

As for the first part of your post; I don't think that win at Le Mans was more difficult than Hamilton's titles in 2014 or 2015 and since he hasn't yet won the Indy 500; I can't really comment on that in any specific sense. In general, it's not easy to win the 500 as you are not going to have a car that is much faster than the next guy's and there is a lot of luck involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:06 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


But that's not what I said is it? I said it's more difficult for Alonso to win both Le Mans and the Indy 500 than it was for Hamilton to win the WDC in 2014/15 when he had literally one driver in opposition. Not that he'd swap it, not that it would take more effort, not that it would be seen as a bigger achievement.

Perhaps if you look at what I actually say rather than what you seem to think I mean you may not disagree quite so much?

But regardless, Alonso can't win more championships in F1 so what is he supposed to do? I don't understand why any motor racing fan would criticise what he is trying to do.

As far as this last bit; I agree with you. I don't have a problem with what Alonso has chosen to pursue and I think it is a way for him to still compete and be productive in the world of motor sport. The two things I don't agree with are: 1. The idea that these achievements are the equivalent of WDCs and: 2. The idea that this actually makes sense for McLaren in the big picture.

As for the first part of your post; I don't think that win at Le Mans was more difficult than Hamilton's titles in 2014 or 2015 and since he hasn't yet won the Indy 500; I can't really comment on that in any specific sense. In general, it's not easy to win the 500 as you are not going to have a car that is much faster than the next guy's and there is a lot of luck involved.


A win in both Le Mans and Indy combined I said was more difficult. I agree his Le Mans win on its own is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 7:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


But that's not what I said is it? I said it's more difficult for Alonso to win both Le Mans and the Indy 500 than it was for Hamilton to win the WDC in 2014/15 when he had literally one driver in opposition. Not that he'd swap it, not that it would take more effort, not that it would be seen as a bigger achievement.

Perhaps if you look at what I actually say rather than what you seem to think I mean you may not disagree quite so much?

But regardless, Alonso can't win more championships in F1 so what is he supposed to do? I don't understand why any motor racing fan would criticise what he is trying to do.

As far as this last bit; I agree with you. I don't have a problem with what Alonso has chosen to pursue and I think it is a way for him to still compete and be productive in the world of motor sport. The two things I don't agree with are: 1. The idea that these achievements are the equivalent of WDCs and: 2. The idea that this actually makes sense for McLaren in the big picture.

As for the first part of your post; I don't think that win at Le Mans was more difficult than Hamilton's titles in 2014 or 2015 and since he hasn't yet won the Indy 500; I can't really comment on that in any specific sense. In general, it's not easy to win the 500 as you are not going to have a car that is much faster than the next guy's and there is a lot of luck involved.


A win in both Le Mans and Indy combined I said was more difficult. I agree his Le Mans win on its own is not.

I agree to disagree lol. Winning two WDCs is not easy when Nico Rosberg is in the same car and has better reliability. That Le Mans win was almost a foregone conclusion. We'll see about Indy.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:23 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.

I'd like to see you defend this reasoning, to be honest. The F1 WDC of the last 10 years has had the best or equal best car in each of those years: in 6 of them (2009, 2011, 2013, 2014-16, looking like 2019) the dominant car was so much better than the competition that it was essentially the same situation as Toyota in Le Mans. Why would a WDC won under those circumstances have been more valuable than a Le Mans win? You're just fighting your teammate(s) either way.

As for Indy, I think you have no ground whatsoever. A dominant team that is guaranteed to take the win doesn't exist. Even the top teams at the 500 - the Penskes and the Ed Carpenter cars - don't have the same locked in chance at winning the 500 as a Mercedes or Ferrari car does the F1 WDC. Putting yourself in the right car in F1 gives you a 25% or better shot at winning the WDC. That simply can't be done at the 500.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.

I'd like to see you defend this reasoning, to be honest. The F1 WDC of the last 10 years has had the best or equal best car in each of those years: in 6 of them (2009, 2011, 2013, 2014-16, looking like 2019) the dominant car was so much better than the competition that it was essentially the same situation as Toyota in Le Mans. Why would a WDC won under those circumstances have been more valuable than a Le Mans win? You're just fighting your teammate(s) either way.

As for Indy, I think you have no ground whatsoever. A dominant team that is guaranteed to take the win doesn't exist. Even the top teams at the 500 - the Penskes and the Ed Carpenter cars - don't have the same locked in chance at winning the 500 as a Mercedes or Ferrari car does the F1 WDC. Putting yourself in the right car in F1 gives you a 25% or better shot at winning the WDC. That simply can't be done at the 500.

I don't think last year's WDC was won with the best car nor do I think the WDCs in years like 2005 or 2008 were won with the best car. Either way, to win the WDC you have to beat IMO a significantly higher caliber of opposition than what you face in Le Mans. Alonso's only opposition was the car driven by Kamui Kobayashi. Now I like Kamui but I wouldn't put him on par with the likes of Rosberg or Vettel. Not by any stretch. The pole time for Le Mans last year was also 4 seconds clear of the next closest team. I don't think any F1 team has had a margin like that since the 50s so I don't agree that it was similar to years like 2013 or 2014. The WDC also requires a consistently excellent performance over the course of an entire season. Le Mans may have a lot of prestige but, at the end of the day, it's just one race and it's a race where drivers split seat time with their teammates. I honestly cannot fathom how anyone could seriously argue that winning Le Mans is a comparable achievement to winning a WDC for a driver.

As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

We'll cross that bridge if and when we get to it. There is no guarantee that Alonso will ever win the 500 so this may be a moot point. They showed up without a steering wheel this year so it seems that he'll need to get serious enough about it to actually join a real Indycar team if he wants to win it.

On a side note; I don't think Brawn had an unbeatable car in 2009. Not when you consider the entirety of the season. Red Bull had a faster car during the second half of the season most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:32 pm 
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mcdo wrote:

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.[/quote]
Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.[/quote]
I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?[/quote]
Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.[/quote]
When I was growing up Graham Hill had been a part of two unique things that set him apart from the others - he won the "triple crown" of motorsport and he was part of the only father-son duo to win the F1 championship. Now only one of those things is unique to him

He also won two F1 titles but he has not been feted to the same degree for those

And in Graham Hill's own opinion the triple crown included the F1 World Championship, not the Monaco Grand Prix. So he also appeared to set himself apart from the rest by putting weight behind his own unique set of achievements[/quote]


Another form of a "triple crown" which I think could mean more than winning the 3 races, is winning Championships in 1. F1, 2. Indycar, 3. WEC/endurance racing. I kind of think it means more, but Alonso was clear when he stated the 3 races. Even as an Alonso fan, I don't look at his LeMans accomplishment as ANYTHING. Toyota was running with TOTALLY different rules, and it was a total joke and anyone that follows racing knows that it is a ghost race only a win by title only. I am sure no one really says much about it because it is Alonso, but I doubt any of his F1 fellow drivers have much envy for that "accomplishment". Even Danika Patricks (only) indycar win is more legitimate, which says a lot. Alonso would have had a harder time winning an F2 race or Kart race at the world championships than he did the Lemans race. This is kind of why I wonder if he is even willing to do the indycar series, if he can't dominate, it may say something that he doesn't want. There just may be some talent and it may not be as easy as he thinks. Think about it, what if he got beat by an American like Josef Newgarden or Colton Herta. I mean, no one in the USA can driver worth anything, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The triple crown would etch Alonso name in history more than a 3rd WDC. I'm not saying a 3rd WDC was on the cards btw but I do think if you are interested in legacy the triple crown has merit.

So If Montoya ever won Le Mans he would have the equivalence of a WDC, I would disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:39 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

It's not a standard topic of conversation, true. Still don't see how that diminishes it, though. I remember when Mansell won in the US it was talked about at the time as a really impressive feat to have won F1 and Indy but it's not like people bring it up all the time now either.

You still call it mythical but it's not a myth. Why do Alonso's speeches bother you so much?

I'm just seeing things for what they are in respect to Alonso, it's a myth for Alonso to convey what he thinks it means.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

I don't know that they'd trade in the WDC, no. But I am certain that some fans would consider the 500 victory a more significant addition to their career achievements than another WDC. What will becoming a 6-time WDC tell us about Hamilton that we don't already know? Absolutely nothing. Going to a brand new, highly competitive, category of racing and winning there, however, would tell us that he's willing and able to go outside his comfort zone and compete with the best of another discipline. It would tell us that he's not just a great F1 driver, he's a great oval racer as well.

Personally, I feel that winning this year's WDC will mean almost nothing for Hamilton (and only something for Bottas because it would be his first). It's already clear they have a massive level of car advantage. For the team, it means a lot -- designing yet another world-beating car despite having lost their engine advantage. But for Hamilton, all he's doing now is record-chasing. He has nothing left to prove, and he will prove exactly nothing by winning in the clear best car another time.

I have no doubt that many of the highly insular fans of F1 would count another WDC higher than any other possible achievement. I don't think they're right to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:00 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.

Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

When I was growing up Graham Hill had been a part of two unique things that set him apart from the others - he won the "triple crown" of motorsport and he was part of the only father-son duo to win the F1 championship. Now only one of those things is unique to him

He also won two F1 titles but he has not been feted to the same degree for those

And in Graham Hill's own opinion the triple crown included the F1 World Championship, not the Monaco Grand Prix. So he also appeared to set himself apart from the rest by putting weight behind his own unique set of achievements

That's what it is unique and also somewhat undefined, WDC or Monaco GP, I googled triple crown and on the first page I saw horse racing and Rugby Union however it did make the second page, it's not that well known.

Winning 2 WDC's didn't set him apart as being the best driver in F1 but nor did winning the triple crown set him apart as being better than the rest either, nor did Hill look to define that drivers had the need to prove themselves by achieving it.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Well let's put your reasoning to the test, shall we? Do you think Hamilton would trade those titles in for Indy 500 and Le Mans trophies? I think he'd probably fall out laughing if you made that offer. I think the car Hamilton drove those years was dominant but his teammate was a stronger driver than you will find in either Indycar or WEC. It's also a 19 race season competition and not a single race. That's not to even mention the fact that Toyota's advantage over the field at Le Mans was far greater than Mercedes' advantage over the field in 2014-2015. So once again I find myself in complete disagreement with you.


But that's not what I said is it? I said it's more difficult for Alonso to win both Le Mans and the Indy 500 than it was for Hamilton to win the WDC in 2014/15 when he had literally one driver in opposition. Not that he'd swap it, not that it would take more effort, not that it would be seen as a bigger achievement.

Perhaps if you look at what I actually say rather than what you seem to think I mean you may not disagree quite so much?

But regardless, Alonso can't win more championships in F1 so what is he supposed to do? I don't understand why any motor racing fan would criticise what he is trying to do.

As far as this last bit; I agree with you. I don't have a problem with what Alonso has chosen to pursue and I think it is a way for him to still compete and be productive in the world of motor sport. The two things I don't agree with are: 1. The idea that these achievements are the equivalent of WDCs and: 2. The idea that this actually makes sense for McLaren in the big picture.

As for the first part of your post; I don't think that win at Le Mans was more difficult than Hamilton's titles in 2014 or 2015 and since he hasn't yet won the Indy 500; I can't really comment on that in any specific sense. In general, it's not easy to win the 500 as you are not going to have a car that is much faster than the next guy's and there is a lot of luck involved.


A win in both Le Mans and Indy combined I said was more difficult. I agree his Le Mans win on its own is not.

Does winning the Indy500 in itself prove yourself though when so much depends on luck, the talent that is Takuma Sato won in 2017, it's basically a crap shoot, it's basically something that you have more chance of winning the more times you take part, more impressive would be winning the Indycar series, the whole idea what Alonso says about the race and Le Mans being worth a WDC is greatly flawed when the WDC is run over a single season comprising about 20 races whereas the Le Mans and Indy500 wins could be 10 years apart, it's not how Alonso wants to view it as a measure of a drivers greatness.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

I don't know that they'd trade in the WDC, no. But I am certain that some fans would consider the 500 victory a more significant addition to their career achievements than another WDC. What will becoming a 6-time WDC tell us about Hamilton that we don't already know? Absolutely nothing. Going to a brand new, highly competitive, category of racing and winning there, however, would tell us that he's willing and able to go outside his comfort zone and compete with the best of another discipline. It would tell us that he's not just a great F1 driver, he's a great oval racer as well.

Personally, I feel that winning this year's WDC will mean almost nothing for Hamilton (and only something for Bottas because it would be his first). It's already clear they have a massive level of car advantage. For the team, it means a lot -- designing yet another world-beating car despite having lost their engine advantage. But for Hamilton, all he's doing now is record-chasing. He has nothing left to prove, and he will prove exactly nothing by winning in the clear best car another time.

I have no doubt that many of the highly insular fans of F1 would count another WDC higher than any other possible achievement. I don't think they're right to do so.

Some of Schumacher's 7 world titles were walkovers that didn't diminish what he achieved, legacy is what you achieve, the more titles the bigger legacy and a Indy500 win comes nowhere near to having an extra WDC title, it only has any desire when you no longer have a chance to win another WDC like Alonso but when you retire from F1 with 5 or more titles winning the Indy500 adds nothing in particular when you have some unrated drivers winning the race in part because the race is a bit of a lottery.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
... more impressive would be winning the Indycar series, the whole idea what Alonso says about the race and Le Mans being worth a WDC is greatly flawed when the WDC is run over a single season comprising about 20 races whereas the Le Mans and Indy500 wins could be 10 years apart, it's not how Alonso wants to view it as a measure of a drivers greatness.

I completely agree that this would be more impressive, and I hope Alonso goes for it next year.

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