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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

I don't know that they'd trade in the WDC, no. But I am certain that some fans would consider the 500 victory a more significant addition to their career achievements than another WDC. What will becoming a 6-time WDC tell us about Hamilton that we don't already know? Absolutely nothing. Going to a brand new, highly competitive, category of racing and winning there, however, would tell us that he's willing and able to go outside his comfort zone and compete with the best of another discipline. It would tell us that he's not just a great F1 driver, he's a great oval racer as well.

Personally, I feel that winning this year's WDC will mean almost nothing for Hamilton (and only something for Bottas because it would be his first). It's already clear they have a massive level of car advantage. For the team, it means a lot -- designing yet another world-beating car despite having lost their engine advantage. But for Hamilton, all he's doing now is record-chasing. He has nothing left to prove, and he will prove exactly nothing by winning in the clear best car another time.

I have no doubt that many of the highly insular fans of F1 would count another WDC higher than any other possible achievement. I don't think they're right to do so.

I would strongly disagree that Hamilton winning the championship means nothing. That's an awfully unfair stance to take regardless of the strength of the car (which hasn't been that far beyond the competition until Barcelona). For me personally, doing the retirement circuit in other series would not mean much for someone of Hamilton's caliber. And no, I am not an insulated F1 fan. I keep up with more than a dozen racing series.

The fact is that F1 is a different beast. Follow the money. That's where the top talent is. What we saw at Indy from Alonso (in 2017 not this year) is indicative of what we could expect from Hamilton most likely. He'd easily be fast enough to win and if he joined a team with its act together, he'd have as good of a chance as anybody. The Le Mans win (if it's in the same situation as Alonso with Toyota) is something you wouldn't need someone of Hamilton's caliber to achieve. Most of the guys on the grid could probably have accomplished that.

In my opinion the 6th WDC is meaningful precisely because it inches him closer to another record (perhaps the most important individual record in F1). If Mercedes maintain their relative strength; it won't go down as his most impressive WDC but he is an F1 driver so it's much more central to his legacy than winning the 500. What Alonso is doing now; running around trying to poach accolades from other series for his CV; is just not the same. You do realize he's only doing it because he ran out of good options in F1, don't you?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:22 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

I don't know that they'd trade in the WDC, no. But I am certain that some fans would consider the 500 victory a more significant addition to their career achievements than another WDC. What will becoming a 6-time WDC tell us about Hamilton that we don't already know? Absolutely nothing. Going to a brand new, highly competitive, category of racing and winning there, however, would tell us that he's willing and able to go outside his comfort zone and compete with the best of another discipline. It would tell us that he's not just a great F1 driver, he's a great oval racer as well.

Personally, I feel that winning this year's WDC will mean almost nothing for Hamilton (and only something for Bottas because it would be his first). It's already clear they have a massive level of car advantage. For the team, it means a lot -- designing yet another world-beating car despite having lost their engine advantage. But for Hamilton, all he's doing now is record-chasing. He has nothing left to prove, and he will prove exactly nothing by winning in the clear best car another time.

I have no doubt that many of the highly insular fans of F1 would count another WDC higher than any other possible achievement. I don't think they're right to do so.

I would strongly disagree that Hamilton winning the championship means nothing. That's an awfully unfair stance to take regardless of the strength of the car (which hasn't been that far beyond the competition until Barcelona). For me personally, doing the retirement circuit in other series would not mean much for someone of Hamilton's caliber. And no, I am not an insulated F1 fan. I keep up with more than a dozen racing series.

The fact is that F1 is a different beast. Follow the money. That's where the top talent is. What we saw at Indy from Alonso (in 2017 not this year) is indicative of what we could expect from Hamilton most likely. He'd easily be fast enough to win and if he joined a team with its act together, he'd have as good of a chance as anybody. The Le Mans win (if it's in the same situation as Alonso with Toyota) is something you wouldn't need someone of Hamilton's caliber to achieve. Most of the guys on the grid could probably have accomplished that.

In my opinion the 6th WDC is meaningful precisely because it inches him closer to another record (perhaps the most important individual record in F1). If Mercedes maintain their relative strength; it won't go down as his most impressive WDC but he is an F1 driver so it's much more central to his legacy than winning the 500. What Alonso is doing now; running around trying to poach accolades from other series for his CV; is just not the same. You do realize he's only doing it because he ran out of good options in F1, don't you?

You are free to disagree. I think calling it 'unfair' shows that you don't really understand my point of view, or that you're not applying a very even standard here.

All that Hamilton is doing this year is accumulating records. He's already the greatest driver of his era; beating Bottas in the best car in the field will do nothing to prove him any further. He needs to prove himself against Max, Leclerc, or someone else considered a forerunner from the next generation, not beat the same driver for the third straight year. You even admit he's just going for records now -- the 6th WDC.

Well, to me, that means nothing. I consider Jim Clark to be the greatest F1 driver, and he only has two WDCs. I don't place any value on more WDCs if I don't believe the driver has increased merit. Vettel has four, and I'd place him below plenty of drivers with less. I already rate Hamilton higher than Schumacher -- two more WDCs will not change that. Championships are not a meaningful way to evaluate individual competitors in a team sport.

And considering that all Hamilton is doing is accumulating statistics, I think it's a double standard to downplay what Alonso is doing. He knows he doesn't have an avenue to a competitive car in F1, so he's trying to find ways to prove -- statistically, and for the record books -- that he's more than just a 2-time F1 WDC. If you think Hamilton winning the 2019 WDC has merit but Alonso winning in Le Mans or IndyCar has none, all you're doing is assigning an arbitrarily high value to the F1 WDC -- something I do not believe it has earned.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:55 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As far as Indy goes; that's a bigger deal from a driver's standpoint IMO. Indy is not easy to win by any means. There is no way to gain a big car advantage and much of what determines the outcome is outside of the drivers' control. That said I don't think Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel would trade in one of their WDCs for an Indy 500 trophy. I don't think they'd even consider it. What's more, I don't think fans would hold the Indy victory in higher esteem. It's just one race after all and it's a race against a clearly lower level of competition IMO.

I don't know that they'd trade in the WDC, no. But I am certain that some fans would consider the 500 victory a more significant addition to their career achievements than another WDC. What will becoming a 6-time WDC tell us about Hamilton that we don't already know? Absolutely nothing. Going to a brand new, highly competitive, category of racing and winning there, however, would tell us that he's willing and able to go outside his comfort zone and compete with the best of another discipline. It would tell us that he's not just a great F1 driver, he's a great oval racer as well.

Personally, I feel that winning this year's WDC will mean almost nothing for Hamilton (and only something for Bottas because it would be his first). It's already clear they have a massive level of car advantage. For the team, it means a lot -- designing yet another world-beating car despite having lost their engine advantage. But for Hamilton, all he's doing now is record-chasing. He has nothing left to prove, and he will prove exactly nothing by winning in the clear best car another time.

I have no doubt that many of the highly insular fans of F1 would count another WDC higher than any other possible achievement. I don't think they're right to do so.

I would strongly disagree that Hamilton winning the championship means nothing. That's an awfully unfair stance to take regardless of the strength of the car (which hasn't been that far beyond the competition until Barcelona). For me personally, doing the retirement circuit in other series would not mean much for someone of Hamilton's caliber. And no, I am not an insulated F1 fan. I keep up with more than a dozen racing series.

The fact is that F1 is a different beast. Follow the money. That's where the top talent is. What we saw at Indy from Alonso (in 2017 not this year) is indicative of what we could expect from Hamilton most likely. He'd easily be fast enough to win and if he joined a team with its act together, he'd have as good of a chance as anybody. The Le Mans win (if it's in the same situation as Alonso with Toyota) is something you wouldn't need someone of Hamilton's caliber to achieve. Most of the guys on the grid could probably have accomplished that.

In my opinion the 6th WDC is meaningful precisely because it inches him closer to another record (perhaps the most important individual record in F1). If Mercedes maintain their relative strength; it won't go down as his most impressive WDC but he is an F1 driver so it's much more central to his legacy than winning the 500. What Alonso is doing now; running around trying to poach accolades from other series for his CV; is just not the same. You do realize he's only doing it because he ran out of good options in F1, don't you?

You are free to disagree. I think calling it 'unfair' shows that you don't really understand my point of view, or that you're not applying a very even standard here.

All that Hamilton is doing this year is accumulating records. He's already the greatest driver of his era; beating Bottas in the best car in the field will do nothing to prove him any further. He needs to prove himself against Max, Leclerc, or someone else considered a forerunner from the next generation, not beat the same driver for the third straight year. You even admit he's just going for records now -- the 6th WDC.

Well, to me, that means nothing. I consider Jim Clark to be the greatest F1 driver, and he only has two WDCs. I don't place any value on more WDCs if I don't believe the driver has increased merit. Vettel has four, and I'd place him below plenty of drivers with less. I already rate Hamilton higher than Schumacher -- two more WDCs will not change that. Championships are not a meaningful way to evaluate individual competitors in a team sport.

And considering that all Hamilton is doing is accumulating statistics, I think it's a double standard to downplay what Alonso is doing. He knows he doesn't have an avenue to a competitive car in F1, so he's trying to find ways to prove -- statistically, and for the record books -- that he's more than just a 2-time F1 WDC. If you think Hamilton winning the 2019 WDC has merit but Alonso winning in Le Mans or IndyCar has none, all you're doing is assigning an arbitrarily high value to the F1 WDC -- something I do not believe it has earned.

Well I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying that Alonso winning Le Mans or Indycar has no merit at all. I'm saying it's not the equivalent of winning another WDC. I think the degree of difficulty is higher to win titles in F1; even if Hamilton is driving the best car. To put it another way; I think Bottas could win both Indy and Le Mans if he devoted himself to it and got the best machinery. I don't think any driver in either of those series could beat Bottas to the championship if they replaced Hamilton at Mercedes. What's more; Hamilton and Alonso are F1 drivers first and foremost. Winning WDCs is the absolute most important thing that either of them could accomplish in any given year. Alonso could have that Andretti seat and if you offered to trade it for Hamilton's seat at Mercedes; he'd bite your hand off.

If you're saying that winning this title has no merit; I completely disagree. I mostly agree with your point about it not really revealing anything new about Lewis or altering your perception of his ability in any significant way but you still have to win those races. I've seen many good F1 drivers fail to win titles with the best car and not always against their teammate. Can you really tell me that Damon Hill shouldn't have been champion in 95'? What if Hamilton wins every race from here on out? That would mean nothing to you? Because the car has 2-3 tenths on everyone else? For me; you can still be impressive in the best car. I thought Vettel, for example, was extremely impressive in 2011 despite the fact that he had the best car. He was extremely consistent on Saturdays and Sundays and he made some very exciting overtakes that year as well. Regardless of what car you have; there are 20 races in the calendar that you must consistently perform to the maximum in and another driver who is better than anyone you'll encounter in Indycar driving the same car as you.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:47 am 
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rodH wrote:
Another form of a "triple crown" which I think could mean more than winning the 3 races, is winning Championships in 1. F1, 2. Indycar, 3. WEC/endurance racing. I kind of think it means more, but Alonso was clear when he stated the 3 races. Even as an Alonso fan, I don't look at his LeMans accomplishment as ANYTHING. Toyota was running with TOTALLY different rules, and it was a total joke and anyone that follows racing knows that it is a ghost race only a win by title only. I am sure no one really says much about it because it is Alonso, but I doubt any of his F1 fellow drivers have much envy for that "accomplishment". Even Danika Patricks (only) indycar win is more legitimate, which says a lot. Alonso would have had a harder time winning an F2 race or Kart race at the world championships than he did the Lemans race. This is kind of why I wonder if he is even willing to do the indycar series, if he can't dominate, it may say something that he doesn't want. There just may be some talent and it may not be as easy as he thinks. Think about it, what if he got beat by an American like Josef Newgarden or Colton Herta. I mean, no one in the USA can driver worth anything, right?
How is Alonos's LeMans accomplishment any different to e.g. the 2014 WDC based on the rationale above?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Whoever has ever looked to give this triple crown so much importance in the past and to try and equate it to winning multiple F1 WDC's is laughable.

I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

It's not a standard topic of conversation, true. Still don't see how that diminishes it, though. I remember when Mansell won in the US it was talked about at the time as a really impressive feat to have won F1 and Indy but it's not like people bring it up all the time now either.

You still call it mythical but it's not a myth. Why do Alonso's speeches bother you so much?

I'm just seeing things for what they are in respect to Alonso, it's a myth for Alonso to convey what he thinks it means.

No you're trying to create a position so you can beat him down with it. He's chasing the only meaningful records he has left available to him and if he does achieve them he will go down in the history books. It's strange that this should generate such antipathy


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 8:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?


Perhaps I should rephrase Poker. What could he do to that you would not criticise?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

You think they aren't focusing on their own car? They took a couple of months off to do Indy? Baloney. They do have considerable resources at McLaren. I doubt very much that the Indy effort will have any effect whatsoever on their F1 program.

Had McLaren had success this year at Indy, they would have benefited greatly, as it is they still had their name before the public despite the troubles. And they had Alonso's name associated with them and whether his detractors like it or not, that is a positive thing. Those trying to blame Alonso for McLarens Indy appear the same ones who have found fault in Alonso in most everything he has done, so no surprise there.

I think the one thing this year's McLaren's Indy fiasco has shown is that it is no easy thing to waltz into another series and be great from the start. Many in here were expecting McLaren and Alonso to have great success, after all it is only IndyCar. Perhaps McLaren was equally sure of it, I don't know. The arrogance of the F1 community, and many of this forum, got a bit of a pounding with the failure. Funny how Alonso's success last year was so well received and offered as proof of the greatness of F1 drivers over all others...even crediting McLaren for his success though they did nothing more than sponsor his car and let him drive.

Now we see get another example of how the driver is no more than a part of the team and not the most critical part at that...without the car and team, there is no success regardless of how good the driver is. It is true of all motorsports and always has been.

Lastly, to those "hating" on Alonso for missing an F1 race to run Indy last year, I would say that decision was a much greater benefit to McLaren, Alonso AND F1 than having a driver of his caliber flailing around a the back of the pack at Monaco in a struggling car/team. Actually, it was about the only thing McLaren had to smile about the whole year!

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:07 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


Only if they've forget about Alonso's DNF from the lead in Hungary when his wheel fell off though which cost him the win there.

Alonso won when the Renault was at its best in the first half before the ban on the mass damper and Michael won when the Ferrari was at its best in the 2nd half so the unbalanced nature of wins in each half is entirely as expected going by the cars respective performances in each half of the season rather than some loss of form from Alonso in the second half.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No that's not true. A 3rd WDC would be far more important. Analyze that Le Mans win and you'll find it was not really that high of a degree of difficulty at all. It was basically his car against the sister car. I wouldn't put that in the same category as his titles in 05' or 06'. Back in the old days it meant more to win Le Mans (and Indy for that matter). This was not his first choice. It's a backup plan.


I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I'm not talking about what's best. I'm talking about what will stick in the memory.
A 3rd WDC wouldn't really change his legacy in itself. Not as much as the triple crown would.

Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?

Anything else that is!


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.

Neither do I, nor do I necessarily think he was the best driver in the world. It's entirely possible that Alonso was the best driver in the world at that point in time. I don't put Michael on the same pedestal that many others do though so my view might be slightly off the beaten path.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Couldn't disagree more. A third title would put him in much rarer company than the two he already has, with the likes of departed legends like Lauda and Senna. It would also give him claim to having actually beaten Hamilton and Vettel to at least one championship. He hasn't won one since they came into the sport in 2007.

More importantly, in today's motor racing environment, it would be a far higher degree of difficulty. Alonso is a Formula 1 driver first and foremost. That's what he devoted his career to. This last gasp at glory here in his late 30s is just a way to bloat his resume. It's only really impressive on paper. Don't get me wrong, I think that the win at Le Mans is certainly something that he can be proud of and winning Indy would be even more so but they are one-off races in an era where they carry far less prestige than in the glory days of the past.


He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.


That's what he claimed, empty batteries, wasn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

He's done one better, he beat Schumacher on a straight fight in '06

The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.


That's what he claimed, empty batteries, wasn't it?


That's a bit different to demotivated. He looked pretty up for it through the season to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 2:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.

Neither do I, nor do I necessarily think he was the best driver in the world. It's entirely possible that Alonso was the best driver in the world at that point in time. I don't put Michael on the same pedestal that many others do though so my view might be slightly off the beaten path.


I rate Schumacher as the best ever but by 2006 I think Alonso was on his level. Schumacher was at his best 95-02 IMO. 2006 was one of Alonso finest seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.

Neither do I, nor do I necessarily think he was the best driver in the world. It's entirely possible that Alonso was the best driver in the world at that point in time. I don't put Michael on the same pedestal that many others do though so my view might be slightly off the beaten path.


I rate Schumacher as the best ever but by 2006 I think Alonso was on his level. Schumacher was at his best 95-02 IMO. 2006 was one of Alonso finest seasons.

I do not but I agree that the best years of his career were in the 95-02 window of time.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The title in 06' was very good but what exactly makes that "doing one better?" Hamilton and Vettel were more Alonso's contemporaries than Michael was. Michael was on his way out the door in 2006. Many would also say that Michael's engine failure from the lead in Japan essentially handed Alonso the title that year after Fernando struggled to hold on to his points lead all through the second half of the season. Michael bested him 5 wins to 1 in the second half; that Japanese GP being the only win for Alonso in the final 9 rounds.


He bested the best driver in the world! Even when he was going out and was demotivated


I don't think Schumacher was in anyway demotivated in 2006.


That's what he claimed, empty batteries, wasn't it?


That's a bit different to demotivated. He looked pretty up for it through the season to me.


Then apologies, my English failed me, I took it to have a similar meaning.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

Then apologies, my English failed me, I took it to have a similar meaning.


I think he mean't that he was feeling tired by the end of the season. Demotivated would be like Damon Hill in 99 parking a healthy car in his final grand prix.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

Now I read again what I wrote and it leaves an impression that I blamed solely the driver. No, the whole operation of Indycar is an underestimated science.

You blamed both the driver and the team, Alonso was not to blame apart perhaps because of his crash but other drivers crashed and the teams were able to get the drivers back on track much quicker than what McLaren did.

He went with the team with that one :)

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
... more impressive would be winning the Indycar series, the whole idea what Alonso says about the race and Le Mans being worth a WDC is greatly flawed when the WDC is run over a single season comprising about 20 races whereas the Le Mans and Indy500 wins could be 10 years apart, it's not how Alonso wants to view it as a measure of a drivers greatness.

I completely agree that this would be more impressive, and I hope Alonso goes for it next year.

Me too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?

I'm criticising what he thinks it means if he wins the Indy500, I also criticise his motive for competing in it not because he's seeing it as a stand alone great race but it seems because it gets him this mythical triple crown.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think laughable is a little strong tbh. Alonso has won 2 WDCs against arguably the GOAT so he has little left to prove in F1. Winning in different disciplines is no mean feat so I think it's a pretty impressive stat to be only one of two people who has ever done it. Hill has always been feted as the only person ever to have done it so I don't agree that it's something that obscure that motor-racing fans wouldn't recognize it. I still don't quite see your need to belittle him? :?

Graham Hill's triple crown hardly ever got mentioned until Alonso made it such a big thing, when talking about all time driving greats when does Graham Hill ever get mentioned?

Alonso has 2 WDC's but contempories like Vettel and Hamilton have more and they will always have more and that's the problem for Alonso so he had to create this mythical triple crown that never got mentioned before Alonso made it such a big thing to achieve like winning multiple WDC's.

Why do I think like this maybe because of things like the speech that to be considered a great driver then you have to win in other disciplines as well creating the backdrop of Alonso having achieved more than his contempories if he ever wins the Indy500.

It's not a standard topic of conversation, true. Still don't see how that diminishes it, though. I remember when Mansell won in the US it was talked about at the time as a really impressive feat to have won F1 and Indy but it's not like people bring it up all the time now either.

You still call it mythical but it's not a myth. Why do Alonso's speeches bother you so much?

I'm just seeing things for what they are in respect to Alonso, it's a myth for Alonso to convey what he thinks it means.

No you're trying to create a position so you can beat him down with it. He's chasing the only meaningful records he has left available to him and if he does achieve them he will go down in the history books. It's strange that this should generate such antipathy

My antipathy is in what Alonso thinks it means if he achieves it.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?


Perhaps I should rephrase Poker. What could he do to that you would not criticise?

I've just answered why I criticise him.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 4:18 am 
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......and back to the indy 500....weather isn't looking good. could very well end up a half distance race sunday, or a monday afternoon race


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 7:13 am 
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pokerman wrote:
My antipathy is in what Alonso thinks it means if he achieves it.


I think I have to question that, poker. What he thinks it means is what most tend to think it means...a unique and notable achievement. As I have stated often before, I Personally hold driver versatility in high regard. I think many others do as well.

There is very little that Alonso has done that you and a few others in here have not found fault with. The same goes for Vettel. Even Schumi. It seems a continuous effort to belittle them at each and every opportunity. Is it because some rate Alonso, and certainly Schumi, superior to Lewis? Is it because of some fear of a threat to Hamilton's legacy??? That is how it tends to come across to me anyway as I read many of yours and some others posts. You do understand that in knocking down the other top drivers you are doing the same to Lewis don't you? After all, if they are so flawed, then we're is the glory in beating them. You know...kinda like the way some love to claim that Schumi's records are somehow insignificant because he competed against a supposedly weak F1 field.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 8:42 am 
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pc27b wrote:
......and back to the indy 500....weather isn't looking good. could very well end up a half distance race sunday, or a monday afternoon race

It had better not be a Monday afternoon race. I'm not going to be in Indianapolis Monday afternoon. :frown:

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 1:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pc27b wrote:
......and back to the indy 500....weather isn't looking good. could very well end up a half distance race sunday, or a monday afternoon race

It had better not be a Monday afternoon race. I'm not going to be in Indianapolis Monday afternoon. :frown:

https://youtu.be/uDzhEcfRORk

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pc27b wrote:
......and back to the indy 500....weather isn't looking good. could very well end up a half distance race sunday, or a monday afternoon race

It had better not be a Monday afternoon race. I'm not going to be in Indianapolis Monday afternoon. :frown:


that would be a bummer.
this week we have had non stop thunderstorms blowing in and then out....looks like the same chances for sunday-at this time- and rain monday morning. hope they are wrong

where are you sitting ?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 6:51 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pc27b wrote:
......and back to the indy 500....weather isn't looking good. could very well end up a half distance race sunday, or a monday afternoon race

It had better not be a Monday afternoon race. I'm not going to be in Indianapolis Monday afternoon. :frown:

that would be a bummer.
this week we have had non stop thunderstorms blowing in and then out....looks like the same chances for sunday-at this time- and rain monday morning. hope they are wrong

where are you sitting ?

Turn 3 club section. I haven't tried it before, but it should be a good place to view the race with a bit of shade thrown in! At least I'll have an awning if it rains...

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
My antipathy is in what Alonso thinks it means if he achieves it.


I think I have to question that, poker. What he thinks it means is what most tend to think it means...a unique and notable achievement. As I have stated often before, I Personally hold driver versatility in high regard. I think many others do as well.

There is very little that Alonso has done that you and a few others in here have not found fault with. The same goes for Vettel. Even Schumi. It seems a continuous effort to belittle them at each and every opportunity. Is it because some rate Alonso, and certainly Schumi, superior to Lewis? Is it because of some fear of a threat to Hamilton's legacy??? That is how it tends to come across to me anyway as I read many of yours and some others posts. You do understand that in knocking down the other top drivers you are doing the same to Lewis don't you? After all, if they are so flawed, then we're is the glory in beating them. You know...kinda like the way some love to claim that Schumi's records are somehow insignificant because he competed against a supposedly weak F1 field.

I've never looked to criticise Alonso as a driver just what comes out of his mouth, in respect to Schumacher was it ever said of him when he retired the first time that he had to prove himself in other series?

Alonso himself has decided the importance of this triple crown, other drivers of note never considered it something worth obtaining.

Out of interest what is the global view of the Indy500 I've not being able to find the viewing figures for last year's race only that 4.9M Americans watched the race?

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's only important to Alonso's ego on how he wants to be seen to be viewed in terms of achievement.

As far as him winning 2 WDC's you make it sound like he achieved all he wanted to achieve in F1 and now on to the next big thing but what actually happened is he fell short of what his talent should have achieved and now he's looking to create something that's equal in importance but it's not and never was.


Ok,

but he can't help that now so what do you think he should be doing?

He can do what he wants.

and yet you're criticizing him for it?

I'm criticising what he thinks it means if he wins the Indy500, I also criticise his motive for competing in it not because he's seeing it as a stand alone great race but it seems because it gets him this mythical triple crown.

And do you know what it means for Alonso?

Has he said himself that it is equal or better to an F1 WDC as you mentioned somewhere above?

He wants the triple crown because he can't get another WDC (under current circumstances), because he wants to and because he can. He did not say that it is a better achievement than F1, but it is a unique achievement never the less. It really is that simple


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:01 am 
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/m ... 213021001/

mario, 50 years after winning video and torico gets a ride from the airport to the track in the indy two seater. with mario driving


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:08 pm 
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First SC car stuffs Will Power's race somewhat.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Lap after lap of yellow for a small spin in the pit lane.
I guess someone has a bet on Pagenaud for the win.
Absolute joke the further this goes on.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 6:56 pm 
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Rossi isn't happy lol.

This could get spicy.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Big crash. Bourdais and Rahal, looks like Sebby at fault and Rahal not happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Alex Brundle sounds so much like his father its scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Did they just say Ferrucci had graduated from F2?

Yeah, not quite the wording I would use.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:44 pm 
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Ooh this should be a good finish. Fingers crossed for no more yellow, but I think there will be!

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