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Pick the top two immortal Teams
McLaren (1988-1991) 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
Williams (1992-1997) 15%  15%  [ 6 ]
Ferrari (2000-2004) 30%  30%  [ 12 ]
Red Bull (2009-2013) 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Mercedes (2014-2018) 33%  33%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 40
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 Post subject: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:01 pm 
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With Mercedes entering a sixth year of domination, likely to break Ferrari's record of 5 consecutive doubles, I was curious how people feel the current Mercedes operation stacks up against the previous immortal teams.






FromToYearsWDCWCCWinsWin PercentageOne-TwosOne-Two %PolesPole %
Mclaren198819914443960.941726.565281.25
Williams199219976455263.411619.517085.37
Ferrari200020045555969.412327.064654.12
Red Bull200920135444547.871617.025760.64
Mercedes201420185557474.003939.008383.00


On the numbers front, bar Williams somehow having a better pole percentage, Mercedes are unsurprisingly dominating (although as I manually counted these numbers from the Wikipedia pages, I may have made a human error) - however these numbers only tell part of the story, as the older cars tended to be far more fragile and retirements were far more common.

Given that I anticipate that most people will vote for Mercedes, I have made the poll as 'pick two' so people can vote for their top two in the poll, and maybe rank the teams in order in a reply.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:09 pm 
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I think what's most damning about the above table is that since 1988, there is only the period 1998 - 1999 and 2005 - 2009* that are not really part of a dominating period in F1.

*I'm giving 2009 to Brawn and not counting it as part of Red Bull's domination period just to be kind.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:33 pm 
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What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


I suppose you're not old enough to remember when tables turned numerous times a year...
It just started breaking a long time ago and every remedy tried and added just made things worse.

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


I suppose you're not old enough to remember when tables turned numerous times a year...
It just started breaking a long time ago and every remedy tried and added just made things worse.

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

I started watching F1 religiously going back to 1984, the tables got turned repeatedly in 2017 and 2018 yet these years are listed as part of a domination.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:12 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
I think what's most damning about the above table is that since 1988, there is only the period 1998 - 1999 and 2005 - 2009* that are not really part of a dominating period in F1.

*I'm giving 2009 to Brawn and not counting it as part of Red Bull's domination period just to be kind.

If Vettel doesn't wreck in Australia and Monaco in 09 he's the champ IMO


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


As is being discussed on another thread. The domination is completely different this time. It's just just Merc locked in 1st. Ferrari and Red Bull are locked in 2nd or 3rd. Look at other periods and you see way more variation among those getting wins, poles and podiums.






From To No. of winning teamsPolesPodiums
88 91 4 3 13
92 97 5 5 12
00 04 5 5 9
09 13 7 9 12
14 18 3 4 7


Surely you can see the difference there?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


I suppose you're not old enough to remember when tables turned numerous times a year...
It just started breaking a long time ago and every remedy tried and added just made things worse.

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

I started watching F1 religiously going back to 1984, the tables got turned repeatedly in 2017 and 2018 yet these years are listed as part of a domination.


Just add 20 more years (Gasp ! 8O ) to your dedication and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about...

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?

You know it is not that simple, I think you are being slightly naughty with this remark.

Today's problem is slightly different as others have mentioned, rules that make new teams joining completely uninterested, engines that are over-complicated, etc., we've been over this many times in the forum.

And no, F1 is not broken, in fact F1 was never perfect and there were always complaints through the years, it is not just today's issue.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)

Not sure how it relates to the broken point you were making?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:19 pm 
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This Mercedes team is the most dominant relative to the whole grid.

Certainly other cars have been more dominant over a single season, but I don't think anything compares to what Mercedes have done over a 6 year stretch. They've been the best team every single season, even when they didn't have the fastest car.

What's telling about this era compared to others, is the gap to the whole grid, not just relative to the 2nd best team. Mercedes have only really had 1 credible opponent, and even then it's been in about 25% of the races since 2014. I don't think that's ever happened before, even for 50 races, never mind 100+.

The sad thing is, in 2016 you could probably have accurately predicted how the front of the grid would look for the next 5yrs, such is the performance lock in. Yeah Ferrari and Merc might exchange fastest car a few times, but pretty much everything since it was decided 2021 was the earliest rule change has been totally predictable.

PS - Mercedes will win the 2021 WDC and WCC. Ferrari will be 2nd, Red Bull 3rd. Verstappen ''might'' take 2nd place in the drivers standings, but that's as big a shock as we'll get.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:47 pm 
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My votes went to Mercedes and Williams - and I'm a little surprised that they haven't had any additional votes.

I think the Williams cars - bar 1994 & 1995 - were the most dominant cars in the history of F1, beyond what Mercedes have today. Two things prevented them from the numbers Mercedes have achieved: reliability and drivers.

Yes, in 1992 they had Mansell, in 1993 they had Prost. But the rest of their time their leading car was in the hands of Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve. Of all the drivers to win the WDC in the last 30 years, these are probably the drivers most people would rank lowest in speed and skill.

I think that Mercedes is still above Williams, as I think Mercedes have developed the most perfect organisational structure, the most oiled machine. If anything, they are a combination of the Ferrari machine of 2000-2004, with car dominance approaching Willians 92-97 and modern reliability. I would argue that their driver quality is the highest of the teams, too. This is not about comparing Hamilton and Schumacher, but more the second driver. Bottas and Rosberg are above the quality of Barrichello and Massa, in my opinion.

While it is certainly adding a degree of monotony to the results, what Mercedes have achieved is impressive, and what is also impressive is how they have been able to respond and deal with regulation changes, in a manner that often caused Ferrari to briefly stumble.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:46 pm 
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I voted for Ferrari, but I would give my second vote to Lotus. They were unstoppable in their day, with a combination of the best car and the best driver that can easily rival the Schumacher or Hamilton years. The only difference is that Clark suffered from 1960s reliability - for a significant stretch, he won every race he finished.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:59 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I voted for Ferrari, but I would give my second vote to Lotus. They were unstoppable in their day, with a combination of the best car and the best driver that can easily rival the Schumacher or Hamilton years. The only difference is that Clark suffered from 1960s reliability - for a significant stretch, he won every race he finished.

I did debate putting in Lotus, but I think that prior to the McLaren era of the late 80s, the reliability factor in F1 didn't exist to allow for such levels of domination. The most they ever won consecutively was 2. Ferrari was the first team to win 3 WCCs consecutively (75-77) - McLaren was the first to win 4 in a row (88-91) - so I think it is fair to consider that to be the first instance of a truly dominating team that had a run spanning multiple seasons, even if Lotus were the package everyone feared in the 1960s


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)


Indeed. It certainly helps one's records pursuit to have had a seat in the most dominate seat in F1 history, doesn't it? I bring that up only because you have worked so hard to claim otherwise over the past few years, poker.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:38 am 
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Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


I suppose you're not old enough to remember when tables turned numerous times a year...
It just started breaking a long time ago and every remedy tried and added just made things worse.

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

I should point out that 'immortal' in this sense is a poetic way of describing their hyper-domination - so domination is required to be in this list. Ie, they are so strong against the competition they are almost impossible to defeat. It wasn't meant to refer to general legendary status - which of course many other teams would earn the right.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:41 am 
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Typically, manufacturer teams have dominated the streaks but Williams are the only privateer / customer team to dominate. This isn't possible now for many reasons. Don't know if McLaren would fall in the same bracket as Williams but atleast they always had a way bigger budget than Williams.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:00 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Typically, manufacturer teams have dominated the streaks but Williams are the only privateer / customer team to dominate. This isn't possible now for many reasons. Don't know if McLaren would fall in the same bracket as Williams but atleast they always had a way bigger budget than Williams.

I think they would, certainly during the era in which they were dominant. The McLaren of the 1980s and 1990s was very much a privateer.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:30 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Harpo wrote:

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

I should point out that 'immortal' in this sense is a poetic way of describing their hyper-domination - so domination is required to be in this list. Ie, they are so strong against the competition they are almost impossible to defeat. It wasn't meant to refer to general legendary status - which of course many other teams would earn the right.


I was well aware of what you meant. As I wrote, I won't bet the recent periods of hyper-domination, will provide immortality to the dominant teams (apart in the mind of bookkeepers).
It's really kind of you to add a poetic label to periods that are as far as they can be from poetry.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:01 am 
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I think the gulf between the haves and have-nots is far bigger now than it ever was. When looking at budgets and everything else I'd say Williams stands out, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list. Red Bull in my opinion have also been seriously impressive in the way they've come from virtually nothing to beating the establishment at their own game, but to be fair their funding certainly helped there. I initially put Ferrari for effectively setting the blueprint for success but again their massive funding and private test track gave them an inherent advantage over the others. And while the dates aren't included in this list I think McLaren's tenure at the top level of F1 for the length of time it had is also worthy of mention. They may not have been dominant but were a dominant force for sure.

Mercedes today have been quite impressive but I feel strongly that the rules have helped them mightily and don't think they've been playing in the same field as teams from the past.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:41 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I think the gulf between the haves and have-nots is far bigger now than it ever was. When looking at budgets and everything else I'd say Williams stands out, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list. Red Bull in my opinion have also been seriously impressive in the way they've come from virtually nothing to beating the establishment at their own game, but to be fair their funding certainly helped there. I initially put Ferrari for effectively setting the blueprint for success but again their massive funding and private test track gave them an inherent advantage over the others. And while the dates aren't included in this list I think McLaren's tenure at the top level of F1 for the length of time it had is also worthy of mention. They may not have been dominant but were a dominant force for sure.

Mercedes today have been quite impressive but I feel strongly that the rules have helped them mightily and don't think they've been playing in the same field as teams from the past.


I agree, Williams was definitely the team to beat in the mid-90's, but that's what happened, they were beaten. So I can't consider it as dominance frankly. There is the point that the drivers were sub-par, but I'm not entirely sure about that. I believe that if you put Damon in the Merc he'd deliver, same as Jaques. Hell, put Hulk and Perez and they'd deliver. I am not sure I can say that for the Williams with the same certainty. Then again, the Mercs didn't have to compete with a monster-force like MS either.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 10:57 am 
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Zoue wrote:
, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list.

Williams in 1995 got 12 out of 16 pole positions. They were out performed on race day by the Benetton running better strategies, and the fact that Schumacher was a far more capable driver than Hill - who was under a lot of pressure as lead driver.

Williams in '94 produced a car equal to an illegal Benetton. It was also after arguably the biggest regulation change ever to hit the sport.

The thread is about periods of domination - the same argument could be made that as Ferrari didn't dominate in 2003, or Red Bull didn't dominate in 2009 or 2012, that those years shouldn't be on the list. (and I include 2009 as the Red Bull era as their car was virtually as fast as Brawn without a double diffuser, and once they added it they were the class of the field - essentially the Red Bull 'era' was the 2009-2013 regulation period)


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:43 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list.

Williams in 1995 got 12 out of 16 pole positions. They were out performed on race day by the Benetton running better strategies, and the fact that Schumacher was a far more capable driver than Hill - who was under a lot of pressure as lead driver.

Williams in '94 produced a car equal to an illegal Benetton. It was also after arguably the biggest regulation change ever to hit the sport.

The thread is about periods of domination - the same argument could be made that as Ferrari didn't dominate in 2003, or Red Bull didn't dominate in 2009 or 2012, that those years shouldn't be on the list. (and I include 2009 as the Red Bull era as their car was virtually as fast as Brawn without a double diffuser, and once they added it they were the class of the field - essentially the Red Bull 'era' was the 2009-2013 regulation period)
The Williams was undeniably quick in '95 but I think dominant is stretching the definition a bit. It it was truly dominant Schumacher wouldn't have stood a chance. Hill may not have been as good as Schumacher but to lose by that amount while in a dominant car is for me a bit unrealistic.

In '94 the Williams was only any good after they brought their heavily revised chassis and it still took Schumacher being out of the picture for a third of the remaining races to allow Hill to beat him by a single point. I can't see that as being dominant at all.

I would also say that it's not accurate to include 2009 in Red Bull's period. Even by your own criteria they got, what, two poles in the second half? Competitive, certainly. But dominant? I don't think so. Maybe if the topic was periods when teams were at the top I'd take it but otherwise I think it's dostorting the picture.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:46 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


As is being discussed on another thread. The domination is completely different this time. It's just just Merc locked in 1st. Ferrari and Red Bull are locked in 2nd or 3rd. Look at other periods and you see way more variation among those getting wins, poles and podiums.






From To No. of winning teamsPolesPodiums
88 91 4 3 13
92 97 5 5 12
00 04 5 5 9
09 13 7 9 12
14 18 3 4 7


Surely you can see the difference there?

I'm not disputing that this period has the most dominant teams, just saying dominance is more the norm in F1, for the period 2009-2013 some of the numbers are bloated because of race fueled qualifying, comedy tyres and less reliable cars and teams.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:56 am 
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Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

It's explained above, there were no periods of domination before then. Teams never won more than 1 or 2 WCC's in a row before then


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:16 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

It's explained above, there were no periods of domination before then. Teams never won more than 1 or 2 WCC's in a row before then


Personally I would have included Ferrari 75-79 as well. They won the WCC for 3 consecutive years. 75-77 and again in 79.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list.

Williams in 1995 got 12 out of 16 pole positions. They were out performed on race day by the Benetton running better strategies, and the fact that Schumacher was a far more capable driver than Hill - who was under a lot of pressure as lead driver.

Williams in '94 produced a car equal to an illegal Benetton. It was also after arguably the biggest regulation change ever to hit the sport.

The thread is about periods of domination - the same argument could be made that as Ferrari didn't dominate in 2003, or Red Bull didn't dominate in 2009 or 2012, that those years shouldn't be on the list. (and I include 2009 as the Red Bull era as their car was virtually as fast as Brawn without a double diffuser, and once they added it they were the class of the field - essentially the Red Bull 'era' was the 2009-2013 regulation period)
The Williams was undeniably quick in '95 but I think dominant is stretching the definition a bit. It it was truly dominant Schumacher wouldn't have stood a chance. Hill may not have been as good as Schumacher but to lose by that amount while in a dominant car is for me a bit unrealistic.

In '94 the Williams was only any good after they brought their heavily revised chassis and it still took Schumacher being out of the picture for a third of the remaining races to allow Hill to beat him by a single point. I can't see that as being dominant at all.

I would also say that it's not accurate to include 2009 in Red Bull's period. Even by your own criteria they got, what, two poles in the second half? Competitive, certainly. But dominant? I don't think so. Maybe if the topic was periods when teams were at the top I'd take it but otherwise I think it's dostorting the picture.

Whether or not to include 2009 or not for Red Bull was a 50/50 issue for me, mainly because of the issues you raise, however given that the 2010-2013 car was a continuation of the lineage started in 2009, in terms of the car package, it seemed fair to include it - and they were certainly the only team on a par with Brawn that year and without the march Brawn stole on them with the double diffuser, then RBR would have won that season as well.

Yes, Williams did not dominate in 94 or 95, but they dominated over the period 1992 to 1997. 94/95 were years where the rest of the field was on a par, but then even with Mercedes we saw that in 2017 and 2018 against Ferrari, or with McLaren and Williams against Ferrari in 2003, or Ferrari/McLaren with Red Bull in 2012. However the point is that in the periods I included above, the team was seen as the team to beat in the sport. And some times they were beaten.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

It's explained above, there were no periods of domination before then. Teams never won more than 1 or 2 WCC's in a row before then


Personally I would have included Ferrari 75-79 as well. They won the WCC for 3 consecutive years. 75-77 and again in 79.

That is probably worthy of consideration as well and there is a case of including it in the poll (but it's now too late to add it unfortunately), however as the Ferrari era in 2000-2004 is generally considered Ferrari's golden period in the sport, I think that it's probably best to limit each team to their best period. Also, as we go back before the days of Senna, the general knowledge of F1 fans tends to drop off quite fast and most people only know what they've read on Wikipedia so they tend to get less votes as people are less familiar with them.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?


I suppose you're not old enough to remember when tables turned numerous times a year...
It just started breaking a long time ago and every remedy tried and added just made things worse.

Besides, Chapman's Lotus or Brabham's Brabham are immortal teams, if you ask me, and never needed to dominate this way to be immortal. Not sure this kind of domination garantees immortality.

I started watching F1 religiously going back to 1984, the tables got turned repeatedly in 2017 and 2018 yet these years are listed as part of a domination.


Just add 20 more years (Gasp ! 8O ) to your dedication and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about...

Well I'm not old enough to remember but I do remember the Lotus being known for unreliability a killer for out and out domination.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
, although I wouldn't say Williams dominated in '94 or '95 so not sure why that's included in the list.

Williams in 1995 got 12 out of 16 pole positions. They were out performed on race day by the Benetton running better strategies, and the fact that Schumacher was a far more capable driver than Hill - who was under a lot of pressure as lead driver.

Williams in '94 produced a car equal to an illegal Benetton. It was also after arguably the biggest regulation change ever to hit the sport.

The thread is about periods of domination - the same argument could be made that as Ferrari didn't dominate in 2003, or Red Bull didn't dominate in 2009 or 2012, that those years shouldn't be on the list. (and I include 2009 as the Red Bull era as their car was virtually as fast as Brawn without a double diffuser, and once they added it they were the class of the field - essentially the Red Bull 'era' was the 2009-2013 regulation period)
The Williams was undeniably quick in '95 but I think dominant is stretching the definition a bit. It it was truly dominant Schumacher wouldn't have stood a chance. Hill may not have been as good as Schumacher but to lose by that amount while in a dominant car is for me a bit unrealistic.

In '94 the Williams was only any good after they brought their heavily revised chassis and it still took Schumacher being out of the picture for a third of the remaining races to allow Hill to beat him by a single point. I can't see that as being dominant at all.

I would also say that it's not accurate to include 2009 in Red Bull's period. Even by your own criteria they got, what, two poles in the second half? Competitive, certainly. But dominant? I don't think so. Maybe if the topic was periods when teams were at the top I'd take it but otherwise I think it's dostorting the picture.

Whether or not to include 2009 or not for Red Bull was a 50/50 issue for me, mainly because of the issues you raise, however given that the 2010-2013 car was a continuation of the lineage started in 2009, in terms of the car package, it seemed fair to include it - and they were certainly the only team on a par with Brawn that year and without the march Brawn stole on them with the double diffuser, then RBR would have won that season as well.

Yes, Williams did not dominate in 94 or 95, but they dominated over the period 1992 to 1997. 94/95 were years where the rest of the field was on a par, but then even with Mercedes we saw that in 2017 and 2018 against Ferrari, or with McLaren and Williams against Ferrari in 2003, or Ferrari/McLaren with Red Bull in 2012. However the point is that in the periods I included above, the team was seen as the team to beat in the sport. And some times they were beaten.


mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

It's explained above, there were no periods of domination before then. Teams never won more than 1 or 2 WCC's in a row before then


Personally I would have included Ferrari 75-79 as well. They won the WCC for 3 consecutive years. 75-77 and again in 79.

That is probably worthy of consideration as well and there is a case of including it in the poll (but it's now too late to add it unfortunately), however as the Ferrari era in 2000-2004 is generally considered Ferrari's golden period in the sport, I think that it's probably best to limit each team to their best period. Also, as we go back before the days of Senna, the general knowledge of F1 fans tends to drop off quite fast and most people only know what they've read on Wikipedia so they tend to get less votes as people are less familiar with them.

I don't really agree but I see the point you are making, fair enough :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?

You know it is not that simple, I think you are being slightly naughty with this remark.

Today's problem is slightly different as others have mentioned, rules that make new teams joining completely uninterested, engines that are over-complicated, etc., we've been over this many times in the forum.

And no, F1 is not broken, in fact F1 was never perfect and there were always complaints through the years, it is not just today's issue.

New teams that joined in recent years folded because of the revenue systems created by Bernie who only wanted 10 competitive teams not a F1 littered with teams hardly any better than F3000/GP2/F2 teams.

That being said Haas joined during the hybrid era so what you said is not entirely true and going forward the 2021 regs being laid down were said to be looking to encourage new teams to join but it seems even 2021 is already being written off?

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)

Not sure how it relates to the broken point you were making?

Maybe F1 has always been broken because it's not changed that much to me apart from it being far more professional?

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
This Mercedes team is the most dominant relative to the whole grid.

Certainly other cars have been more dominant over a single season, but I don't think anything compares to what Mercedes have done over a 6 year stretch. They've been the best team every single season, even when they didn't have the fastest car.

What's telling about this era compared to others, is the gap to the whole grid, not just relative to the 2nd best team. Mercedes have only really had 1 credible opponent, and even then it's been in about 25% of the races since 2014. I don't think that's ever happened before, even for 50 races, never mind 100+.

The sad thing is, in 2016 you could probably have accurately predicted how the front of the grid would look for the next 5yrs, such is the performance lock in. Yeah Ferrari and Merc might exchange fastest car a few times, but pretty much everything since it was decided 2021 was the earliest rule change has been totally predictable.

PS - Mercedes will win the 2021 WDC and WCC. Ferrari will be 2nd, Red Bull 3rd. Verstappen ''might'' take 2nd place in the drivers standings, but that's as big a shock as we'll get.

That's clearly not true.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)

Not sure how it relates to the broken point you were making?

Maybe F1 has always been broken because it's not changed that much to me apart from it being far more professional?

Well broken is your word of course but if you haven't taken onboard the various facts that people have already outlined to demonstrate that F1 is very different now to how it used to be then I don't think anything I say will make a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?
Statistics don't tell the full story though

The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)


Indeed. It certainly helps one's records pursuit to have had a seat in the most dominate seat in F1 history, doesn't it? I bring that up only because you have worked so hard to claim otherwise over the past few years, poker.

You mean like 2017 and 2018?

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Am not sure why the stats arbitrarily stop in the late '80s.
F1 teams total WCCs:
Ferrari - 16
Williams - 9
McLaren - 8
Lotus - 7
Mercedes - 5
Red Bull - 4
Cooper - 2
Brabham - 2
Renault - 2
No one else has more than 1 WCC.

It's explained above, there were no periods of domination before then. Teams never won more than 1 or 2 WCC's in a row before then


Personally I would have included Ferrari 75-79 as well. They won the WCC for 3 consecutive years. 75-77 and again in 79.

They would have won in 1974 had Lauda not had his near fatal crash.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What's interesting is that in the last 31 years we have had only 6 years of none domination, so what we see presently is more normal than not, yet F1 is apparently now broken?

You know it is not that simple, I think you are being slightly naughty with this remark.

Today's problem is slightly different as others have mentioned, rules that make new teams joining completely uninterested, engines that are over-complicated, etc., we've been over this many times in the forum.

And no, F1 is not broken, in fact F1 was never perfect and there were always complaints through the years, it is not just today's issue.

New teams that joined in recent years folded because of the revenue systems created by Bernie who only wanted 10 competitive teams not a F1 littered with teams hardly any better than F3000/GP2/F2 teams.

That being said Haas joined during the hybrid era so what you said is not entirely true and going forward the 2021 regs being laid down were said to be looking to encourage new teams to join but it seems even 2021 is already being written off?


I wish you would stop ending your sentences with these little questions that seem to just aim to upset the conversation... No one said F1 is broken, no one said that 2021 is written off, I'm not sure how you got this idea and in fact these are your additions to the conversation. It makes it quite difficult to hit a proper conversation when you do this.

And Haas is a special case, they got the Marrusia's old HQ, they spent an extra year of free F1 testing (not an F1 team at the time so they had unlimited testing) and they pioneered the low cost model, by that collaboration with Ferrari that didn't really go down quite well in the paddock, still doesn't. Can you see VW or any other team entering with the same terms?


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 Post subject: Re: F1 Immortal Teams
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The statistics show Mercedes as being the most dominant team in F1 history, so that's not really true? ;)

Not sure how it relates to the broken point you were making?

Maybe F1 has always been broken because it's not changed that much to me apart from it being far more professional?

Well broken is your word of course but if you haven't taken onboard the various facts that people have already outlined to demonstrate that F1 is very different now to how it used to be then I don't think anything I say will make a difference.

I see a F1 history littered with dominant teams so what is happening now is little different.

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Last edited by pokerman on Wed May 22, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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