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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:09 pm 
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Will these victories count toward the total number of victories of a driver?
Will their only be there to determine the starting position of a driver in the race, or there will be points, too, or other revards?
Will the number of engines increase per year?

These are just a few things to be solved before such thing is even tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:01 am 
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Some seem quite happy with the reverse grid sprint races but the impression I get is that most are not?

For me it's just turning F1 into a WWE version of itself, Indycar tends to be more for the show than F1 but even they don't have reverse grid races, when qualifying got rained off they had the grid in championship order with the leader on pole position.

Who is this for the benefit of, attracting new fans because I believe that present fans don't want to see it, they don't want to see the end of qualifying?

Is the take that this will attract new fans and present fans will carrying on watching come what may, well this fan won't. They introduce their WWE race and then that's a race I will give a miss, if I don't want it then I'm not going to watch it.

For fans who carrying on watching come what may, well then don't be surprised if that ends up being the format going forward.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:09 am 
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Can you really compare this to WWE or gimmicks though. All they are doing is changing the rules and they still apply to everyone equally? It's just different to what were used to. I'm not sure how well it would work, but I do know that I would want to watch it if they did it. Completely agree that it would devalue the main race though.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:37 am 
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I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:02 am 
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People were opposing fastest lap points, halos, hybrid technologies etc to the point that if all threats of stopping watching F1 had come true, there'd be no viewers left.

I welcome this change too and look forward to it. If it sucks then they'll discard it anyway (see what happened to the elimination format quali).

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:33 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Will these victories count toward the total number of victories of a driver?
No
Will their only be there to determine the starting position of a driver in the race, or there will be points, too, or other revards?
No
Will the number of engines increase per year?
Pass
These are just a few things to be solved before such thing is even tried.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:00 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Can you really compare this to WWE or gimmicks though. All they are doing is changing the rules and they still apply to everyone equally? It's just different to what were used to. I'm not sure how well it would work, but I do know that I would want to watch it if they did it. Completely agree that it would devalue the main race though.

No other series does this, yet it's not a gimmick?

In other sports the best win, for F1 this is considered to be boring so we have a system that makes it almost impossible for the best to win were you are consigned to starting at the back or near the back for most of the season.

There's an article running on Autosport behind a paywall titled "The tiebreak desire driving F1's format plans".

I can only guess at what it's saying but it doesn't take much imagination to see that the desire is to keep the title race close throughout the season taking it down to the last race of the season.

This is not for sporting reasons but more so for commercial reasons, let's create multiple race winners whilst faster cars are handicapped then the sport can be seen to be exciting.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:05 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.

At least the preset system is not a handicap system, a system not designed to try and prevent faster drivers/cars from winning races.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:24 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.

That explains my thoughts exactly but I couldn't get the words out. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.

How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.

How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?


It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Basically every system since 2002 has been about making it harder for the fastest driver/team to win. This is a more entertaining version of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.

How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?


It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.

How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?


It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.


Yeah of course :nod:

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:12 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


:thumbup:

Formula One cars are designed for 300km races. Not flimsy sprint races that serve as fast food motorsports. The passive F1 fans might like to see plenty of action in a short span of time, but us pure F1 fans prefer to see the top drivers battle with each other over the course of 100 minutes with no artificial ingredients added to the racing.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.

Plus the rule that says a team's budget must be $50 million smaller if they aren't Ferrari.

I do find it a little silly to think that F1 can have such a ridiculously unfair, skewed revenue distribution model yet a reverse grid system is what really hampers the sport's credibility as a meritocracy.

My main issue with this sprint race idea is that it's not addressing the actual issues that the majority of people want resolved. It serves purely as a distraction; to attract media attention and give the illusion that the sport is trying to make itself more interesting. Meanwhile the big teams continue to deprive the rest of the grid of the necessary funds to compete with them and the cars still can't follow each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


:thumbup:

Formula One cars are designed for 300km races. Not flimsy sprint races that serve as fast food motorsports. The passive F1 fans might like to see plenty of action in a short span of time, but us pure F1 fans prefer to see the top drivers battle with each other over the course of 100 minutes with no artificial ingredients added to the racing.


But you still get that. Nobody is taking that away.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:47 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


But we don't have the pure battle for the perfect pole lap now and haven't for the last 17 years. A dimension would be lost for sure but another one gained. Something that personally I think I will enjoy more.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.

By that standard isn't the televising of the races just a gimmick? Surely we don't need cameras to find out who the fastest driver and car is, we could just read about it in the paper.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


But we don't have the pure battle for the perfect pole lap now and haven't for the last 17 years. A dimension would be lost for sure but another one gained. Something that personally I think I will enjoy more.


To say that the 3 quali session format detracts from the idea of qualifying as much as a sprint race would seems absurd to me.

The 3 session format does to an extent pander to fans' desire for more action, but it still allows us the chance to see the shoot-out between the best 1-lap drivers/cars in q3. Apart from the odd team cock-up where top drivers fail to get through q1 or q2 due to underestimating others' times, what is lost from the old 'purer' single 60 mins session? (And there used to be 2 sessions if you go back further. Was that 'purer still?)


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


:thumbup:

Formula One cars are designed for 300km races. Not flimsy sprint races that serve as fast food motorsports. The passive F1 fans might like to see plenty of action in a short span of time, but us pure F1 fans prefer to see the top drivers battle with each other over the course of 100 minutes with no artificial ingredients added to the racing.


But you still get that. Nobody is taking that away.


Fair, but to an extent you would be. The top two drivers are most likely going to start in two completely different positions for the start of the Grand Prix.

Also, I go back to that word, Grand Prix. The weekend should all be in preparation to the main Sunday event. Creating sprint races will take away from the focal point of the weekend, and add too much emphasis on the importance of the sprint race.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:08 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.


:thumbup:

Formula One cars are designed for 300km races. Not flimsy sprint races that serve as fast food motorsports. The passive F1 fans might like to see plenty of action in a short span of time, but us pure F1 fans prefer to see the top drivers battle with each other over the course of 100 minutes with no artificial ingredients added to the racing.


But you still get that. Nobody is taking that away.


Fair, but to an extent you would be. The top two drivers are most likely going to start in two completely different positions for the start of the Grand Prix.

Also, I go back to that word, Grand Prix. The weekend should all be in preparation to the main Sunday event. Creating sprint races will take away from the focal point of the weekend, and add too much emphasis on the importance of the sprint race.


They will only start in vastly different areas of the grid if one does a much better job in qualifying which is the case now anyway.

I think this change will actually make qualifying less important. We often have complaints of races being won on Saturday. A reverse grid qualifying race will make that less likely. It will put far more emphasis on the Grand Prix itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:12 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think this change will actually make qualifying less important. We often have complaints of races being won on Saturday. A reverse grid qualifying race will make that less likely. It will put far more emphasis on the Grand Prix itself.

How will it possibly do that? It'll make the initial qualifying less important, sure, but just by transferring that importance to the qualifying 'race'.

In the current system, two title contenders are pretty much guaranteed to start in the top six together. What if someone wrecks one of them out while they're trying to come through the field in the sprint race? 'Qualifying' has then completely ruined the actual Grand Prix purely for the sake of cheap entertainment.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:29 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think this change will actually make qualifying less important. We often have complaints of races being won on Saturday. A reverse grid qualifying race will make that less likely. It will put far more emphasis on the Grand Prix itself.

How will it possibly do that? It'll make the initial qualifying less important, sure, but just by transferring that importance to the qualifying 'race'.

In the current system, two title contenders are pretty much guaranteed to start in the top six together. What if someone wrecks one of them out while they're trying to come through the field in the sprint race? 'Qualifying' has then completely ruined the actual Grand Prix purely for the sake of cheap entertainment.


I don't understand what you mean, initial qualifying? There will just be a reverse championship grid qualifying race.

With the current format we have that can happen anyway. In fact the format is basically designed to make that more possible than the standard one hour session.

Right now you can win pretty much win a race on Sunday at certain tracks. I would even say qualifying on pole at Monza was as big a part as anything else in Leclerc's victory.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:36 am 
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One side effect of sprint race qualifying..... ability to follow closely and overtake will be at a premium - it will be vital to success.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:39 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.

How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?


It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.

No a reverse grid race is clearly a system in place to handicap successful drivers, it makes it incredible hard for the faster driver to win the GP come raceday on Sunday.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport that rewards excellence and not some kind of benefits hand out system.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:43 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't see why I reverse grid quali race is more or less gimmicky than the three Q session format we have now? It's just different route to set the grid for the main event.


Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.

Hardly as draconian as what's now being proposed, the top 10 presently have to start the race with the tyres they qualified on in Q2.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:45 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.


If you can't see the difference between the pure battle for the perfect pole lap, which within motor sport is almost a sub-sport in itself, even an art form - the ultimate test of man and machine; and a contrived race where the best are deliberately handicapped to improve the spectacle for the ignorant, then you presumably have no feeling for the history of F1 nor for the quali driver skills that make F1 the pinnacle of the sport. I hope that whatever the urges of the Liberty business folk Ross Brawn will stick up for those of us who value F1 heritage.

Whether you think Senna was the best over one quali lap or Hamilton or Schumacher, surely a sport where that whole dimension is lost would be much the poorer.

Indeed it's actually one of the cornerstones of the sport and they think I'm getting to accept this drivel that they are looking to serve up, fat chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Definition of a gimmick is "a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade". This reverse grid concept is very much a gimmick. It's a device intended to attract attention by manipulating the starting grid in an attempt to equalize competition by punishing excellence & rewarding mediocrity.

For the first time in the sports history there's now an official handicap system in place. The better you are, the further back you start.


The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.

Hardly as draconian as what's now being proposed, the top 10 presently have to start the race with the tyres they qualified on in Q2.


I never said it was but the principle has already been broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How is it a gimmick when you earn the right to start at or be near the front of the grid as opposed to a system that looks to handicap the faster drivers?


It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.

No a reverse grid race is clearly a system in place to handicap successful drivers, it makes it incredible hard for the faster driver to win the GP come raceday on Sunday.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport that rewards excellence and not some kind of benefits hand out system.


No it doesn't. Only if their is a driver nearly as fast much higher up in the championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The current Quali system is the same though. It's designed to be entertaining? It's far from the most straightforward way to set the grid isn't it?

And it's far from the first time we have had some kind of handicap in F1. It happens pretty often.


The current quali system stays within the framework of how quali was originally designed to be. Now over the years they've tinkered with how they go about getting that result to maximise the entertainment value but they've always stayed true to the original concept. The fastest car always starts at the front, the slowest at the rear. It's a meritocracy in a way.

This change turns that concept 180° by now placing the fastest car at the rear of the grid. Quali will no longer be a meritocracy, it'll be more egalitarianism where everyone starts in the place that'll supposedly give all an equal, or more equal, chance of winning.

I suppose in some ways it's a small reflection of the direction society on a whole moving in today.

I'm also struggling to find other forms of handicapping that have been introduced into F1 mikey. I'm not saying your wrong but I can't think of any.


There's been loads. The most obvious one is the rule about the top 10 having to use qualifying tyres in the race.

Hardly as draconian as what's now being proposed, the top 10 presently have to start the race with the tyres they qualified on in Q2.


I never said it was but the principle has already been broken.

The principle of the fastest driver starting on pole clearly had not been broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It's a system that is put in place for entertainment like a reverse grid. A non gimmicky session would be just an open hour to see who can go the quickest.

A reverse grid quali race would be both entertaining and lead to more entertaining races.

It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.

No a reverse grid race is clearly a system in place to handicap successful drivers, it makes it incredible hard for the faster driver to win the GP come raceday on Sunday.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport that rewards excellence and not some kind of benefits hand out system.


No it doesn't. Only if their is a driver nearly as fast much higher up in the championship.

I don't understand what you mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:21 pm 
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This is a terrible idea. Qualifying is the one thing they have right. I don't want to see some artificial way to give backmarkers a chance at winning. A reverse grid id stupid. Don't penalize teams for doing good and reward teams for preforming poorly.
In the US NASCAR has experimented with all these wacky ideas. Chase for the cup super overloaded calendar and now its all watered down and attendance is bad. People lose interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It still doesn't deviate away from having to earn the right to be on pole position.

So F1 is to be just about entertainment and not about the best winning?

I watch sports to see the best rewarded not mediocrity.


But it's still about earning the right to be on pole. You have to win the qualifying race. Pole isn't awarded arbitrarily.

It's about both entertainment and winning now and it will continue to be so. The current Quali system is an example of precisely that. Nothing about reverse grid quali races changes that.

No a reverse grid race is clearly a system in place to handicap successful drivers, it makes it incredible hard for the faster driver to win the GP come raceday on Sunday.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport that rewards excellence and not some kind of benefits hand out system.


No it doesn't. Only if there is a driver nearly as fast much higher up in the championship.

I don't understand what you mean?


How else would it make it incredibly hard for the fastest driver to win the Grand Prix come race day? That would only be the case if a driver nearly as fast was starting way up the grid.


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