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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:25 am 
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No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:31 am 
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:33 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
ng over as team leader.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.

This really makes you look blinkered.

Jacques as much as I dislike him, was a victim of poor choice of teams not "letting teams down" and the same goes for Lewis in 2012. In fact other than the second half of 2011, you cannot say he let Macca down much in his tenure there. He performed equal to other top drivers in those years. Mistakes he made in the first few years were down to him being a rookie.

If you are going to compare him to someone unfavorably to express your clear bile and defensive nature, please try and make your comparisons accurate, otherwise you make yourself look a tad silly.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:38 am 
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As a fan of both of them, I don't see how they are similar at all really.

I think Lewis is a far better driver than Jacques was, and Jacques was badly advised by Craig Pollock.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:38 am 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
ng over as team leader.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.

This really makes you look blinkered.

Jacques as much as I dislike him, was a victim of poor choice of teams not "letting teams down" and the same goes for Lewis in 2012. In fact other than the second half of 2011, you cannot say he let Macca down much in his tenure there. He performed equal to other top drivers in those years. Mistakes he made in the first few years were down to him being a rookie.

If you are going to compare him to someone unfavorably to express your clear bile and defensive nature, please try and make your comparisons accurate, otherwise you make yourself look a tad silly.


He did not let the team down in 2012 by revealing telemetry on twitter? :o

I think, it's an apt comparison. You should rather not be foolish and come running after me in every topic calling me silly.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:39 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.

There are a lot of similarities but to say Villeneuve = Hamilton is an over simplification to say the least

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:39 am 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
As a fan of both of them, I don't see how they are similar at all really.

I think Lewis is a far better driver than Jacques was, and Jacques was badly advised by Craig Pollock.


Don't you think Jaques also was equally brilliant in his opening years? I mean, until BAR happened, he was a bloody good driver?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:41 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
ng over as team leader.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.

This really makes you look blinkered.

Jacques as much as I dislike him, was a victim of poor choice of teams not "letting teams down" and the same goes for Lewis in 2012. In fact other than the second half of 2011, you cannot say he let Macca down much in his tenure there. He performed equal to other top drivers in those years. Mistakes he made in the first few years were down to him being a rookie.

If you are going to compare him to someone unfavorably to express your clear bile and defensive nature, please try and make your comparisons accurate, otherwise you make yourself look a tad silly.


He did not let the team down in 2012 by revealing telemetry on twitter? :o

I think, it's an apt comparison. You should rather not be foolish and come running after me in every topic calling me silly.

No its not, there's no detail in the comparison just a flakey overview

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:44 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
ng over as team leader.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.

This really makes you look blinkered.

Jacques as much as I dislike him, was a victim of poor choice of teams not "letting teams down" and the same goes for Lewis in 2012. In fact other than the second half of 2011, you cannot say he let Macca down much in his tenure there. He performed equal to other top drivers in those years. Mistakes he made in the first few years were down to him being a rookie.

If you are going to compare him to someone unfavorably to express your clear bile and defensive nature, please try and make your comparisons accurate, otherwise you make yourself look a tad silly.


He did not let the team down in 2012 by revealing telemetry on twitter? :o

I think, it's an apt comparison. You should rather not be foolish and come running after me in every topic calling me silly.

Again you fail to debate properly, the comparison does not work as Jacques himself did not let a team down for the most part, so for most part you comparison is redundant. That is the topic in hand that you asked for feedback on.

Yes Lewis was silly to reveal telemerty, but show me a driver who does not make at least one mistake in a season at some point. In 2012 Lewis raced swimmingly, as did Alonso and Vettel. You can not pick out one mistake and generalize that he "let the team down for the whole year"

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am 
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Jaques was first just about racing and winning but then went for the money later on in his career. Lewis was first about racing and winning now is more into the celebrity life :-| its a shame because i think if lewis concentrates on his f1 career like his idol Senna did, he will end up as a 3 time champion its eveident that he has the talent.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am 
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sennafan24 wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
sennafan24 wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
ng over as team leader.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.

This really makes you look blinkered.

Jacques as much as I dislike him, was a victim of poor choice of teams not "letting teams down" and the same goes for Lewis in 2012. In fact other than the second half of 2011, you cannot say he let Macca down much in his tenure there. He performed equal to other top drivers in those years. Mistakes he made in the first few years were down to him being a rookie.

If you are going to compare him to someone unfavorably to express your clear bile and defensive nature, please try and make your comparisons accurate, otherwise you make yourself look a tad silly.


He did not let the team down in 2012 by revealing telemetry on twitter? :o

I think, it's an apt comparison. You should rather not be foolish and come running after me in every topic calling me silly.

Again you fail to debate properly, the comparison does not work as Jacques himself did not let a team down for the most part, so for most part you comparison is redundant. That is the topic in hand that you asked for feedback on.

Yes Lewis was silly to reveal telemerty, but show me a driver who does not make at least one mistake in a season at some point. In 2012 Lewis raced swimmingly, as did Alonso and Vettel. You can not pick out one mistake and generalize that he "let the team down for the whole year"


JV was one of the more outspoken one's when the car wasn't upto the mark. And, a mistake a season? I didn't see Vettel make any mistakes pertaining to his team till Malaysia. That's 2009-2012. I didn't see Button do it. I didn't see Raikkonen do it. I've named three drivers.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:50 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.

Considering you are a Vettel fan that has posted in other threads trying very hard to disparage Hamilton, please, please stop starting threads in order to continue to do so. Some of us are serious F1 fans that try hard not to let our bias come thru :-((


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:53 am 
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DrG wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.

Considering you are a Vettel fan that has posted in other threads trying very hard to disparage Hamilton, please, please stop starting threads in order to continue to do so. Some of us are serious F1 fans that try hard not to let our bias come thru :-((


I actually saw a similarity, so I just wanted to see how many agree. You can check my history, I'm not the type to make a topic just to get back at someone. I mean, it's not like I'm debating Hamilton here. :P

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:58 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
JV was one of the more outspoken one's when the car wasn't upto the mark. And, a mistake a season? I didn't see Vettel make any mistakes pertaining to his team till Malaysia. That's 2009-2012. I didn't see Button do it. I didn't see Raikkonen do it. I've named three drivers.

But they would make the odd mistake on track or underperform at times, that is still a way of "letting your team down" whichever way you choose to spin it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:59 am 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.

JV got his title then never won another race. Hamilton has won 12 races (hardly "a few") since '08, and has been in contention for the title in all but 2 of the seasons (one due to a crappy car, which he helped develop into a race winner, and one, admittedy, due to just having a bad season).

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:01 pm 
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Schuttelberg wrote:
JV was one of the more outspoken one's when the car wasn't upto the mark. And, a mistake a season? I didn't see Vettel make any mistakes pertaining to his team till Malaysia. That's 2009-2012. I didn't see Button do it. I didn't see Raikkonen do it. I've named three drivers.

Apart from that time he drove into his teammate in Turkey ;) ?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:17 pm 
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JV chose to start a team with friends who really didn't have the foggiest how to build a race team whereas Lewis has joined a team who've got a super successful team principle in Ross Brawn


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:26 pm 
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No. For starters JV never won another race after his WDC year. Hamilton has.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:29 pm 
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diablof1 wrote:
Jaques was first just about racing and winning but then went for the money later on in his career. Lewis was first about racing and winning now is more into the celebrity life :-| its a shame because i think if lewis concentrates on his f1 career like his idol Senna did, he will end up as a 3 time champion its eveident that he has the talent.

Hamilton had one bad year in 2011 out of the 6 years he's been in F1, i don't see how his supposed celebrity lifestyle had anything to do with the calamaties that befell McLaren last year?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:54 pm 
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.


Your comparison has a lot of merit. At the start Villeneuve was fearless, just like Hamilton. I remember Bobby Unser being amazed at Villeneuve's driving in CART. And he was very good in F1.

The trajectory of both of them is similar-- burst on the scene as massive shooting stars, and then slowly dimming.

I hope Hamilton regains his brilliance-- and makes this comparison wrong. But for now, its directionally correct.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:57 pm 
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I remember some people on this (old) forum tried to present this idea back in 2009. Now, 4 years later, I give them proper respect.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:01 pm 
Although this is a touchy subject, a valid one. Based on the immediate personal attacks on the OP, it has touched a few raw nerves.

It is an extremely superficial comparison, and maybe in 20 years fans looking through the record books may draw the same conclusions. For me personally, it's much to soon to go there, Hamilton has many years remaining in his career, he has the potential to win more titles, and there is a lot more history to be laid down.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:02 pm 
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silkjet wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.


Your comparison has a lot of merit. At the start Villeneuve was fearless, just like Hamilton. I remember Bobby Unser being amazed at Villeneuve's driving in CART. And he was very good in F1.

The trajectory of both of them is similar-- burst on the scene as massive shooting stars, and then slowly dimming.

I hope Hamilton regains his brilliance-- and makes this comparison wrong. But for now, its directionally correct.

2012 was one of Hamilton's best seasons

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:04 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I remember some people on this (old) forum tried to present this idea back in 2009. Now, 4 years later, I give them proper respect.

Was that the first half of the season when the McLaren was a bit of a donkey?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:08 pm 
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silkjet wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.


Your comparison has a lot of merit. At the start Villeneuve was fearless, just like Hamilton. I remember Bobby Unser being amazed at Villeneuve's driving in CART. And he was very good in F1.

The trajectory of both of them is similar-- burst on the scene as massive shooting stars, and then slowly dimming.
Really??? I see absolutely no comparison between the two. JV, who I did follow & like in Indy cars, came into F1 & joined Williams, won in his first year there because he had the best car & then did *inaudible* all because he decided to go for the money. I am getting older, but I don't remember Hamilton doing the same. I am not a Hamilton fan but I am warming to him more & more this year :D
I hope Hamilton regains his brilliance-- and makes this comparison wrong. But for now, its directionally correct.

Even more interesting is the fact that my reply didn't make it but I am shown as having replied. Maybe the Mods are Villeneuve fans? Only joking as I think the Mods on this forum are more than fair :D Anyway, my reply that is not showing up is that I don't see how anyone can compare Villeneuve & Hamilton. Apart from being from different generations of F1 racing, I loved Jacques in Indy Car but he was lucky that he joined F1 with Williams at the time cause they were the best car that year & then he went for the money & did *inaudible* all for the rest of his time in F1. How you compare that to Hamilton, I don't know


Last edited by DrG on Wed May 08, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:12 pm 
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silkjet wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.


Your comparison has a lot of merit. At the start Villeneuve was fearless, just like Hamilton. I remember Bobby Unser being amazed at Villeneuve's driving in CART. And he was very good in F1.

The trajectory of both of them is similar-- burst on the scene as massive shooting stars, and then slowly dimming.

I hope Hamilton regains his brilliance-- and makes this comparison wrong. But for now, its directionally correct.

Hamilton has been in contention for the title despite (arguably) not having the best car in 2 of the 4 seasons since his title. As another poster said, 2012 was one of his best years and he would have been right near the top if the team hadn't let him down. I hardly think he is "dimming".

As far as I'm concerned, it's a superficial comparison at best. Why not compare Hamilton with any other 1x WDC?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:19 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
silkjet wrote:
Schuttelberg wrote:
No, not Gilles Villeneuve, but Jaques Villeneuve.

The similarities in their career paths are interesting:-

1) Brilliant first year.
2) WDC in the second year, as well as taking over as team leader.
3) Move to a big team.
4) Both can talk themselves up real nice. Can let teams down.
5) Results after 6 years in F1 seem more or less the same.. One title and nothing there after other than a few wins.


Your comparison has a lot of merit. At the start Villeneuve was fearless, just like Hamilton. I remember Bobby Unser being amazed at Villeneuve's driving in CART. And he was very good in F1.

The trajectory of both of them is similar-- burst on the scene as massive shooting stars, and then slowly dimming.

I hope Hamilton regains his brilliance-- and makes this comparison wrong. But for now, its directionally correct.

Hamilton has been in contention for the title despite (arguably) not having the best car in 2 of the 4 seasons since his title. As another poster said, 2012 was one of his best years and he would have been right near the top if the team hadn't let him down. I hardly think he is "dimming".

As far as I'm concerned, it's a superficial comparison at best. Why not compare Hamilton with any other 1x WDC?

Or even a 2xWDC like Alonso who was in 2005 the youngest WDC and the youngest 2xWDC in 2006, but has won nothing since, is this another dimming star that shone so brightly early on?

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:22 pm 
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Lets see

2009 - Forget it, not even Senna, Schumi or Prost in their primes could have gotten into title contention in that car

2010 - Fans voted him driver of the year on F1Fanatic, maybe able to entertain he did not maximize his chances, there is a argument there.

2011 - 2nd half he was dire for the most part, even if he did race well I doubt could have gotten into title contention with the advantage the Red Bull had.

2012 - I have already covered.

So 2010 is really the only year where there is a valid argument where he himself cost himself the title despite his performances being credited that year for the most part, and 2011 is the only year his overall performance was not up to a high standard.

Some of the comments about Lewis being a flash in the pan or comparing his career to Jacques Villneurve using sketchy and superficial evidence is just as bad as some being held up as saying Vettel is a average driver in a great car.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Similarities are there, Lewis is better. Lewis' career at the top end will probably last longer than JV's though.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:27 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
No. For starters JV never won another race after his WDC year. Hamilton has.

For starters, JV never had a race winning machinery afterwards. Well, till he returned, when he was older, feebler, and well, quite not so good as Alonso in 2004.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Terrible comparison. Lewis has had a few off moments but has had a sustained top class career so far. I would say that he has driven the balls off every car he has been in and shows no signs of slowing down. I will be very surprised if he doesn't win at least one more championship. Jaques was fast for sure but made one career defining and very big mistake by moving over to BAR. Difficult to know what he might have achieved elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Similar, but Lewis is waaay more talented. It'd be a huge shame if he goes down the JV road.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:36 pm 
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schumi7 wrote:
Similar, but Lewis is waaay more talented. It'd be a huge shame if he goes down the JV road.

JV was amongst select company, till he messed up with move to BAR. He won CART, Indy and a F1 WDC. Only the third driver after Mario Andretti and Emerson Fittipaldi to achieve such a feat. Not many could claim as much.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:38 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
schumi7 wrote:
Similar, but Lewis is waaay more talented. It'd be a huge shame if he goes down the JV road.

JV was amongst select company, till he messed up with move to BAR. He won CART, Indy and a F1 WDC. Only the third driver after Mario Andretti and Emerson Fittipaldi to achieve such a feat. Not many could claim as much.

Hmm fair enough, perhaps I haven't seen enough of JV. But I still think Hamilton is more naturally gifted, and as much as it was a shame for JV, it'd be an even bigger shame for LH to waste his career.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Not yet.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:44 pm 
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As someone who has been watching since the 1980's, I'd have to say they are exactly alike. I remember in the late 1990's thinking JV is the fastest man on the grid bar none...if he could just avoid the Red mist he would be at least a triple WDC. I mean Mika and MS were fast, no doubt, but the consensus was that JV was the fastest driver, just needed equal machinery to beat them. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:49 pm 
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schumi7 wrote:
garagetinkerer wrote:
schumi7 wrote:
Similar, but Lewis is waaay more talented. It'd be a huge shame if he goes down the JV road.

JV was amongst select company, till he messed up with move to BAR. He won CART, Indy and a F1 WDC. Only the third driver after Mario Andretti and Emerson Fittipaldi to achieve such a feat. Not many could claim as much.

Hmm fair enough, perhaps I haven't seen enough of JV. But I still think Hamilton is more naturally gifted, and as much as it was a shame for JV, it'd be an even bigger shame for LH to waste his career.

I think so too (well, as tempted as i'm to think of a HFA free F1 forums zone :P), which is why his move was puzzling to begin with. Mercedes though having the best development driver that there ever was, weren't making much progress. Then to boot there's his management company, which seems more interested in monetising him than looking after his career.

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1) Prost/ Schumacher
3) Fangio
4) Lauda
5) Brabham

if you don't like it, too bad! There's a reason why it says "My Top 5"


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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:52 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No. For starters JV never won another race after his WDC year. Hamilton has.

For starters, JV never had a race winning machinery afterwards. Well, till he returned, when he was older, feebler, and well, quite not so good as Alonso in 2004.

There is another reason Hamilton isn't the next JV. He's had better cars in the years after his WDC win.

The only similarity between the two is the fact they won the title in their second full seasons after nearly winning it in their rookie year. After that the similarities stop.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:53 pm 
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garagetinkerer wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
No. For starters JV never won another race after his WDC year. Hamilton has.

For starters, JV never had a race winning machinery afterwards. Well, till he returned, when he was older, feebler, and well, quite not so good as Alonso in 2004.

There is another reason Hamilton isn't the next JV. He's had better cars in the years after his WDC win.

The only similarity between the two is the fact they won the title in their second full seasons after nearly winning it in their rookie year. After that the similarities stop.

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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:53 pm 
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so anyone who only wins 1 WDC is the next Villeneuve? Last time i checked Hamilton has been regarded by the vast majority as one of the top 3 elite in F1 since he joined the sport in '07 and last time i checked the 2012, 4 years after his WDC win, driver rankings on here, courtesy of DOLOMITE and now ATH, he was ranked very slightly behind Alonso and firmly as the 2nd best driver in the sport

I love how Schuttelberg got SO angry in the other thread that its spilled out into a 2nd thread


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