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One would be excused for looking at the points standings and assuming that Dan has had the upper hand in the matchup this year. He has the big lead in the points and he even has a race win to his name. In reality though, when you look closer, Max has been firmly the better of the two on outright performance. Daniel has been extremely lucky to inherit positions this year while Max has had mechanical failures end 4 of his 8 races.

In Bahrain, Max was looking really racy and was in fact in position to potentially challenge for a podium when his brakes failed. In Canada Max was a lock for the podium considering Vettel and Raikkonen's woes but the car died on him yet again (Daniel inherited a podium there). Baku was probably the worst of them all considering the fact that all four Mercedes and Ferrari drivers hit trouble there and Daniel inherited a win after Max retired from way in front of him.

It's funny how things like this can sometimes happen.

Just to play devils advocate here could it be that Max is running the car in engine modes he's not meant to be doing as he is always being told to go to a particular mode.

As this consecutive failures can't be a coincidence or can it?

Of course it can.

Ok then!

Red Bull actually have a long history of having one unlucky car and another car that is basically bullet-proof. In 2010 Vettel had the unlucky car. 2011-2013 Webber had all the problems. 2015-2016 Daniel had all the bad luck. This year it's Max's turn.

On a side note, it's truly amazing how Daniel has often been fortunate to perform well in races where the top cars have trouble. In 2014, his best races seemed to always coincide with Mercedes having problems and Baku was the ultimate example of that as all 4 top cars had problems along with his teammate!

I think I'm right in saying Max has been ahead of Dan on track every time he has retired

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FA#14

Being ahead only counts when the checkered flag waves

I suspect we have an early winner of "Most Pointless Post in the Thread"

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FA#14

Ricciardo now has more than double the points that Max has but has been quite a bit slower all year, especially in the races. Recently Max has easily outqualified him as well. The last couple of races the gap between them is actually worse than the gap between Kimi and Vettel. Not sure what is going on with Ricc. Maybe this generation of cars simply do not suit his driving style. He's just been very lucky this year. He is still a fantastic racer and he proved it again yesterday but how much longer is that luck going to last?

Pretty sure Max being ahead all the time definitely counts when it comes to drawing interest from the top teams.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

MV is undoubtably quick, but not particularly smooth, it could be that a weakness of the Renault engine might mean it needs nursing. DR does have a level of racecraft to admire, his pass to take him to third was a great example. He has a habit of biding his time and keeping out of trouble.

It cannot be denied that on track Verstappen is lighting up the show, and in the last 2 races he could have finished on the podium of not for a car that died.

Whether we ever learn if any car problems were created by Verstappen is questionable, teams usually never change their stories. That being said, if you lead the entire race but your teammate pips you in the finish, that is very relevant. I know of many racers who are as fast as stink, but unable to bring the car home in a respectable finish. I am not saying Verstappen kills cars, what I am saying is that his aggression and pace is on display, while the true reasons for his retirement is a closely guarded secret we will not know, unless someone writes a book twenty years from now.

IMO he is very quick, and not a car killer.

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You are correct. Max has also out-qualified Daniel 5-3 (Really more like 5-2 when you consider that Max couldn't get out of Q1 in China due to engine problems and then an untimely accident stopping his hot lap at the end).

Daniel is someone who I rate very highly so this season has made me a believer in Max like never before. He's always looked racy but I questioned whether or not his ultimate pace was really that spectacular. This year he had been noticeably quicker than Daniel and that is very impressive. Honestly if I were Ferrari I would be doing everything in my power to secure this young man's services.

I actually believe that Red Bull may be on the verge of abandoning their long-standing strategy of strictly promoting from within. They can't keep both Dan and Max beyond 2018 (might lose both of them) and they don't have another driver of top-shelf caliber in their system anymore. They can't simply copy-paste drivers into victory lane anymore and I think that's starting to set in. Wouldn't be shocked to see Alonso over there actually (I know that sounds crazy).

They've got Sainz.

I like Sainz but he's showing us this season that he's not quite top shelf. He has pace but lacks racecraft. Given the best car I'm sure he could win races and set poles but he's not on par with either Dan or Max IMO.

I agree but he looks as promising as Ricciardo and Kvyat did before they got promoted. If Red Bull went for the guy who could barely beat Vergne and the guy who lost to Vergne I don't see them passing over Sainz.

Max is Out-Performing Daniel (Believe it or Not):

Of course he is. Do you think someone's denying it, or did you just feel like getting that off your chest?

Ricciardo needs to pick up his form. His qualifying has been poor lately; his ability to pull out an extra half second in Q3 seems absent, and he's making more mistakes than usual as well. I'd also like to see a dry race where both finish so we can get some real idea of race pace. There was a point last year around Austria where Max was starting to beat Daniel consistently and he picked up his race pace and turned that around (mostly), so we'll see how it plays out in the end.

But yes, right now Max is the better performing driver at Red Bull.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

I still am going to have to come in here and say it is way too soon to say Verstappen is overall the better driver. We have just had 2 full races and 41 laps of all the other races put together when they are both on track. Nowhere near enough time. Ricciardo has been worse in qualifying. I'll admit that. But when he's had the opportunity, in the races, we have seen that he has very often done very well indeed, even if we can't compare him against Verstappen. In China, Verstappen was clearly better. In Monaco, during the race, They were about the same. Ricciardo had better luck, but took that good look well and performed brilliantly. And his good performance (with a bit of luck) has brought him these podiums and a win. I still think Ricciardo's race pace is better overall, just not always in the wet in the wet. China for example. But Verstappen does seem to have better starts. But all we have seen in every race but China and Monaco is their starts. And in those 6 races, when they have both been on the grid, they have done about 41 laps as I said. In all that time, it is nowhere near enough to decide who is the better driver even if Ricciardo is now worse in qualifying and Verstappen has been getting brilliant starts. Just like we assumed Stroll was rubbish until we got to see him perform without many reliability problems, we need the same with the Red Bull drivers. We need many, many more races where they both finish so we can see them fighting all the way.

I agree with Martin Brundle's opinion on Ricciardo. He says Verstappen has improved, but still thinks Ricciardo will have the edge over him this year. I think the same. Especially if we look at last years performance. And that is the most reliable data re can base their performance on really. We haven't seen anywhere near enough of them together on track yet. Ricciardo often doesn't show his true pace in practice. So all the other laps we have seen them do is a bit irreverent really. The race is where it matters and that is where we have hardly been able to compare them.

Sainz is soundly beating Kvyat. Was Ricciardo beating him in a similar way? I dont think so!
Yes Carlos has made some mistakes... but so did Verstappen and so did Ricciardo

Actually Daniel thrashed Kvyat in terms of performance, he just had far more reliability problems. I think Sainz is really good but when I say "not top shelf" I mean literally not on par with the likes of Hamilton and Alonso. For me, both Daniel and Max have shown that they can be that type of driver. Sainz strikes me as more of a potential Rosberg type. Very fast but not really exceptional in other areas of his game.

Check this out for a stat

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FA#14

But Ricciardo never looked top shelf in an STR, neither did Kvyat. Red Bull still promoted them.

Ricciardo is in trouble the last few races, all lucky podiums and a very lucky win. He really needs to up his game if he wants to remain a top driver and be in the running for the big seats. Max is starting to dominate him but the luck isn't falling for him, but that's not so important, everybody is seeing what is happening in RBR and who is the better driver at the moment. Its Rosberg - Hamilton 2016 scenario.

I couldn't say Sainz was soundly beating Kvyat. (unless you meant the past mening last year) If you did then what I'm saying is irreverent.

Although the points show he is beating Kvyat by a long way, that isn't really true. Sainz has made far more mistakes than Kvyat. It's looking like a Kvyat 2016 season in a way. He collected 4 penalty points in 4 races as well as being responsible for 4 retirements and 2 3 place grid penalties which many didn't think was harsh enough. He's had 2 very good races and some other reasonable races. But he's spun and nearly crashed so many times as well as collecting a reprimand in qualifying. Although he got away with them both, he spun and had a light crash at the start of China. he also spun and nearly crashed here at the start of Baku. He is looking very inconsistent.

Kvyat has had 4 retirements. None were his fault and all of his races were at leased reasonable. In Australia, he was far better in the race. So much so, the team had to make Sainz let him past. He then pulled away. Only he then suffered a tyre problem and had to pit. Even then, he didn't finish far behind Sainz. Even their qualifying is 4 - 4 and when you average out all their times put together, Kvyat is only +0.005s behind Sainz.

Points really don't show it but who is better this year? I don't think I can say it is Sainz. But if we base it on everything we have seen from them both in their F1 careers, then yes, Sainz is better. Just can't say that this year.

And one time they were right and the guy went on to clearly beat Vettel - against all (my) expectations. And one time, it did not work out that well.

I really can't understand why anyone can think that! How is 2 races and 41 laps together in the races enough to confirm that? It is nowhere near enough time. Verstappen may be better in qualifying, he may have been better in the 1 wet race they both had. Ricciardo looked very good in the race in Monaco. Although Ricciardo has been lucky, he has also performed very well and we have only had the first few laps to see them against each other. Just because Verstappen has had better starts more often than not and has had 1 better whole race just isn't enough proof based on how much better Ricciardo was last year. Until we get the chance to actually get evidence by them getting a chance to race eachother several times, I'm going to say Ricciardo is still the better, more complete driver.

But I guess I should let everyone have their own views. It just baffles me how we can decide who is overall better when it is the race that counts and we have hardly ever seen both of them at the same time.

It's not that Sainz wouldn't get a promotion. It's that Sainz isn't the answer for them in terms of winning titles. Sainz may also choose to leave if indeed they keep Dan and Max in their seats for next season. Ultimately, I think Red Bull know how fortunate they were to have the young guys that they've had in their young driver program come up when they did. When and if Dan and Max leave, there's no guarantee that they'll be able to replace them with similarly gifted drivers through their own program. Do you even know who their top non-F1 driver is right now?

Pierre Gasly, GP2 champion?

Sorry, completely disagree.
I dont know where you got all this data but I'd call BS. I follow closely Toro Rosso team. Sainz thrashed Kvyat last year, and this year its mostly the same. Sainz is ahead in like 80% or 85% of the time. No matter if Kvyat retired, his fault or not, Carlos still been faster the vast majority of times. Kvyat has beaten him some times in qualy but thats it. In the race Carlos has outperformed him clearly, with some performances that Kvyat never did. I mean just look at the points that both got together in all races... its 71 to 9.
And Sainz spin in Baku was mostly Kvyat's fault if anything. Kvyat triggered it by running so wide in the first corner and then rejoining like a madman

As a side note, how angry must Max be about how the last few races unfolded.

Since at least Spain he's been faster (I think) in every practice & qualifying session and every like for like racing lap than RIC. Don't get me wrong, I think that RIC is a fabulous driver, at least in the top 5 currently go around, but it's looking like VES is that once in a generation driver like Senna and Schumacher.

Anyway, VES must've been incandescent with rage when HAM and VET both had to pit leaving RIC to take the win.

On the plus side if he can bottle up that rage (and his car can hang together) we could all be about to witness a series of Senna-esque performances from the mad Dutchman in the coming races.

I for one am hoping that he's about to redefine the word, "Epic". It'll be great to witness.

Even as a die-hard Daniel Ricciardo fan, I would say Max has had the edge with pace this year.

But in saying that, Daniel is still a very fast driver and has shown his class at times this year. His quick laps after Raikkonen and Verstappen pitted at Monaco got him on the podium. He was the fastest car on track for several consecutive laps (even against Vettel who was doing the same on a clear track).

His pass on Massa and Stroll at Baku was one of his trademark moves and went a long way to getting him the win on Sunday.

Both drivers are very very good. I think Daniel's record in 2014 against Vettel and his 3 wins that year can't be argued with. The Mercs didn't fail all 3 of those times.

The point standings definitely don't reflect the status, but there's too many posts in this thread trying to paint Daniel as a below average driver. He is anything but. And I think that says a lot about Max.

Indeed!

While I like Ricciardo a whole lot, many Fans swear he's Some sort of God behind the wheel and if that's accurate, then his young teammate must be Zeus because that kid consistently outperforms Ricciardo. In their short time together, Max has been running in places Ricciardo can only see off in the distance ahead when he's entering the straight but just for a moment until Max exits the straight.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY

Sorry, completely agree with TheGiantHogweed and completely disagree with you. Last year Kvyat had a very tough year, being demoted rattled him quite a bit, but by the end of the year he was on par with Sainz performance wise and it continues into this season. As far as points are, Kvyat beat Ricciardo in 2015 and I've been told time and time again on this forum how that was meaningless. He's been extremely unlucky this season. Sainz had 2 great performances that brought him most of his points and he's also been quite clumsy crashing out twice and getting penalized. No sure about his spin in Baku, but Kvyat did what any other driver would do in that situation.

I sense hyperbole.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

An easy look back the races starting with the Spanish GP last year and outside Monaco where Ricciardo was untouchable, Max has had the edge over Ricciardo. And though I think Verstappen was a bit over the edge in several instances, when he was pulling off some of those moves, he was more often than not comfortably ahead of Ricciardo. Mind you he was thrust into the senior team in a moments notice and into a completely new car and was immediately on pace and won his maiden race in such a scenario.

Hypoerbole?... I don't think so.

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HAMILTON :: ALONSO :: VETTEL :: RAIKKONEN :: RICCIARDO :: VERSTAPPEN
BOTTAS :: MAGNUSSEN :: OCON :: SAINZ :: PEREZ :: VANDOORNE :: HULKENBERG
GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: ERICSON :: LECLERC :: STROLL :: SEROTKIN :: HARTLEY

At this point last year Rosberg was clearly the better driver

Yeah i am very confused what point he is making in his post, he is saying the inferior driver at RB is winning and than pointed out the inferior driver at Mercedes last season lost out to his team mate.

Lol yeah right, well, keep believing all that while Carlos keeps on beating him.
One thing is outscoring by a tiny margin the way Kvyat did to Ric, and a very different one is the massively outscoring like Carlos is doing to him

Kvyat was worse last year. Clearly. Agree there.

This year, Kvyat has had just too much bad luck to make a fair comparison. If I compare the races they have both finished, Sainz hasn't exactly been MUCH better.

Australia, he clearly wans't as good. That was pretty clear. Kvyat was ahead, had to pit on lap 50 because of an issue, then he still finished close behind Sainz.

China, he was good other than that he nearly took himself out in the first lap. Admittedly, an amazing recovery. Kvyat retired pretty much instantly. Can't compare them.

Bahrain, Sainz had a stupid crash. Kvyat didn't have a points finish but he had a good scrap with the drivers further back. That was decent racing from him there.

Russia, Sainz finished ahead of him, but only by about 5 seconds.

Spain, Sainz had a very good race. Kvyat didn't have a good qualifying. Kvyat was 3 seconds behind Sainz on lap 59. That is either an excellent recovery or Sainz hasn't had a great race. I'd say they both did very well, but especially Kvyat. Just clearly not in qualifying. The graphics then disappeared and he got hit by Magnussen which I think cost him a little time. Anyway, what he lost certainly wasn't more than 5 seconds behind again.

Monaco, it was a race where Sainz had a very good drive. Kvyat wasn't looking as strong as Sainz here but he will havce had a points finish but had yet another reliability problem.

Canada, Kvyat qualified ahead and had absolutely rotten luck at the start. asked his team if he could get back in position and got told "copy copy" He then got a penalty. Maybe he should have known but even if he did make a mistake, it was so unlucky that he had that issue. The race, Sainz had another really clumsy incident, worse than the Bahrain one. Kvyat was much better than him this weekend.

Baku, I haven’t seen anyone else blame Kvyat for Sainz spinning, Most people and the commentators on Channel 4 just though Sainz had a massive overreaction. Kvyat qualified ahead again and will have had a decent chance of beating him. But he retired. Again!. t

4 retirements and bad luck in Australia with several decent races is no worse than Sainz's season. Which is a mix of very good and extremely bad. Kvyat had missed the opportunity to get loads of points. If the bad luck had been switched round, Kvyat would almost certainly have more points this year. He hasn't been making mistakes. But ok, Sainz has been getting the points which is what matters. But we just haven't seen them both enough of the time this year to prove who is now better. Sainz is almost having a Kvyat 2016 in terms of accidents. But he is getting the points. But is isn't having any retirements that are stopping him from doing so. Just think what his points would have been like if he'd had mechanical problems in 4 out of 8 races he finished. If he'd had equally reliability to Kvyat as well as his clumsy incidents, I'm not at all sure he would be ahead on points this year.

Just to add, I get a lot of technical data such as the average gap between all their qualifying times on F1 fanatic. Which proves there qualifying different hardly has anything in it out of 8 races. I get all my other data from the fact I have recorded every single race and I flicked through them all before writing this to make sure what I am saying is true. It isn't BS. It is facts.

His Qualy was always huge and i think a lot of the reason he got the nod.
His race craft then became apparent when he had the opportunity/confidence in a good car whilst in the spotlight at the front of the field.
To this day i think JEV was unlucky not to be kept on, along with a lot of the STR drivers. Look at BUEMI's dominance of Formula E

Sainz, i believe, would impress in a top team the exact same way Ricciardo did. He really hasn't done too much wrong to be honest and if anything looks like he may be trying TOO hard to get himself a top drive, he knows this is his chance. Some of the drives he's put together for those 6th place finishes were amazing and the fact he's repeated in on numerous occasions show's he'd got the right mettle.
Kyvat had his chance and showed he wasn't up to it .. don't know why they wouldn't give Sainz the nod first.

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Ricciardo .:. Massa .:. Alonso .:. Sainz .:.