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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?


I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.


It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.
I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That doesn't change the fact they are competing with a customer engine.

Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:46 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
And yet Red Bull is reported to be looking to leave Renault for Honda...

It's not Ron's fault that Honda didn't live up to expectations. I think he's done far more good for the team than bad


Well. Let’s see if it actually happens. But do you think redbull would entertain Honda engines if they could get their hands on Merc ones? I think not.


Downgraded Merc ones. Which means that yes they would entertain to be the Honda "big team" rather than getting Merc second grade engines.

So if they can't win with Mercedes engines why do Mercedes refuse to give them engines?

This question makes no sense to me, what do you mean?

You think they have more chance of winning with Honda engines than Mercedes engines so why do Mercedes refuse to supply them with engines?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?


I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?


I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?


I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.


It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.
I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year

Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Relevance?

Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?


I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:

I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

Point is they no longer have it. And now they are sizing up Honda...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Relevance is the fact that they are disproving this notion that you can't win with a customer engine, what's holding them back is having the worse customer engine, with Honda I see that as a belief that Honda will overhaul Renault.

They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:

I think I side with pokerman on this one. If they move to Honda it's not because they want to be a works team per se, it's because they don't believe Renault are able to deliver what they need i.e. the fastest engine.

I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.


It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.
I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year

Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

you do realise that last sentence is part of the Works deal?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....


Or they have really lost faith in Renault and they just believe Honda will surpass Renault in creating a competent enough PU to win championships?
It's not impossible, right?

It's basically what drivers do when they take a punt on a lesser team with the idea that it will pay off - e.g. Vettel and Hamilton leaving the second fastest (or even fastest) cars for teams that were much worse because they thought the new teams would get there first. A choice that both, I think, are pretty happy with at this point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....


Or they have really lost faith in Renault and they just believe Honda will surpass Renault in creating a competent enough PU to win championships?
It's not impossible, right?

It's basically what drivers do when they take a punt on a lesser team with the idea that it will pay off - e.g. Vettel and Hamilton leaving the second fastest (or even fastest) cars for teams that were much worse because they thought the new teams would get there first. A choice that both, I think, are pretty happy with at this point.

No I agree it's not impossible. But the balance of probability swings in favour of works status being a deciding factor, especially given Horner's previous statements on the topic. I don't get the suggestion that it's not a consideration as that flies in the face of all we know


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:10 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.

Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

Point is they no longer have it. And now they are sizing up Honda...

But if having a works engines was so important why did they throw it away and try and get the Mercedes engine?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
They're not disproving it. If Red Bull thought they could win the title with Renault they'd stay with them. The only advantage of them moving to Honda is to become the works team, otherwise why make the jump?

That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....

You think that they will move to a inferior Honda engine just for works status when they threw away works status in the past because of inferior engines?

The latest Honda engine is a big improvement, 3 tenths quicker, Ferrari and Renault latest engines 1 tenth quicker, Red Bull are seeing potential plus a financial bonus.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:19 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. Horner has gone on record in the past to say that you have to have works status to succeed, so it's not like there's no basis to assume it. They no longer have the opportunity to do that with Renault but that does exist with Honda. The moment McLaren terminated their contract with Honda pretty much everybody stated that it was only a matter of time before Red Bull would become Honda's works partner. The only question was when and that depended entirely on how quickly Honda could improve to a point it was viable. It seems this year Honda has finally shown some decent progress and sure enough Red Bull is seriously considering it.


It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.
I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year

Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

you do realise that last sentence is part of the Works deal?

But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That has nothing to do with being a customer team but with the Renault engine itself being inferior.

than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....

You think that they will move to a inferior Honda engine just for works status when they threw away works status in the past because of inferior engines?

The latest Honda engine is a big improvement, 3 tenths quicker, Ferrari and Renault latest engines 1 tenth quicker, Red Bull are seeing potential plus a financial bonus.


Renault upgrade was also 3ths for Renault and McLaren. And that's with the biggest MGU-K part of the upgrade shelved because of unreliability.

Those struggles getting the K out there could be what Red Bull have had enough of though. Honda at least brought what was promised.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
It's not that I dispute that there aren't tangible benefits to a works status - I definitely think that's the case. But I do think (contrary to a while ago) that with the proper setup (mainly budget and (technical) staff) a team can beat the works team.

Thinking of RBR with a Ferrari engine, e.g.. Do we put it past RBR to defeat Ferrari and collect a title? I think they'd be capable of it.
I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year

Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

you do realise that last sentence is part of the Works deal?

But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:16 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

Point is they no longer have it. And now they are sizing up Honda...

But if having a works engines was so important why did they throw it away and try and get the Mercedes engine?

Because the Renault was a dud in the beginning. Not as much of a dud as Honda, to be fair, but a dud nonetheless. And they fell out over it


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:53 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
than Honda?

No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....

You think that they will move to a inferior Honda engine just for works status when they threw away works status in the past because of inferior engines?

The latest Honda engine is a big improvement, 3 tenths quicker, Ferrari and Renault latest engines 1 tenth quicker, Red Bull are seeing potential plus a financial bonus.


Renault upgrade was also 3ths for Renault and McLaren. And that's with the biggest MGU-K part of the upgrade shelved because of unreliability.

Those struggles getting the K out there could be what Red Bull have had enough of though. Honda at least brought what was promised.

Fair enough maybe we are seeing the start of diminishing returns were there is more to find for Renault and Honda?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

you do realise that last sentence is part of the Works deal?

But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.

That's actually want I've been saying as opposed to you can't win without works status like that's the be and end all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

Point is they no longer have it. And now they are sizing up Honda...

But if having a works engines was so important why did they throw it away and try and get the Mercedes engine?

Because the Renault was a dud in the beginning. Not as much of a dud as Honda, to be fair, but a dud nonetheless. And they fell out over it

Again you're repeating what I said earlier, it's at this point that I tend to lose track of who said what, my whole point is me refuting this idea that you can't win if you don't have a works engine.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.

That's actually want I've been saying as opposed to you can't win without works status like that's the be and end all.

this misquoting is getting a little tiresome.

What I've been saying is that Red Bull have made no secret of the fact that they prefer works status and that as soon as McLaren divorced last year the talk on everyone's lips was that Red Bull would become the next works Honda team, with TR being their development test-bed. You're trying to peddle the notion that works status is not a consideration but Horner's own statements have shown how important Red Bull feel it is. The only thing holding them back is making sure the timing is correct.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....

You think that they will move to a inferior Honda engine just for works status when they threw away works status in the past because of inferior engines?

The latest Honda engine is a big improvement, 3 tenths quicker, Ferrari and Renault latest engines 1 tenth quicker, Red Bull are seeing potential plus a financial bonus.


Renault upgrade was also 3ths for Renault and McLaren. And that's with the biggest MGU-K part of the upgrade shelved because of unreliability.

Those struggles getting the K out there could be what Red Bull have had enough of though. Honda at least brought what was promised.

Fair enough maybe we are seeing the start of diminishing returns were there is more to find for Renault and Honda?


That was my thinking yeah. Renault's struggles with their K has got to be worrying Red Bull a lot.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:17 pm 
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Looks like the 25p chocolates aren't working. Maybe upgrade to Lindt?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:55 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Looks like the 25p chocolates aren't working. Maybe upgrade to Lindt?


The chocolate gate.

Mclaren keep on proving their car was always midfield in previous years, maybe even worse than midfield but helped by works packaging and money


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:49 pm 
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They are at the back well and truly it seems. They are not a top 5 team in F1 currently. I think they are a lot weaker in qualifying than in the races and they are probably the 6th or 7th best car overall but either way, this is bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:44 pm 
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So, McLaren is the second slowest car now in F1 (maybe even the slowest, given the driver deficits at Williams). What are they doing?
Embarrassing!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:09 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.

That's actually want I've been saying as opposed to you can't win without works status like that's the be and end all.

this misquoting is getting a little tiresome.

What I've been saying is that Red Bull have made no secret of the fact that they prefer works status and that as soon as McLaren divorced last year the talk on everyone's lips was that Red Bull would become the next works Honda team, with TR being their development test-bed. You're trying to peddle the notion that works status is not a consideration but Horner's own statements have shown how important Red Bull feel it is. The only thing holding them back is making sure the timing is correct.

I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:12 am 
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I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:57 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

Image

You know that in 2012 when they had a fast car they couldn't understand why it was so fast because they didn't understand the car, that's one reason why they completely changed the car for 2013 even though the regs were still the same and that car turned out to be rubbish, have they built a good car since, we have to take their word about how good their cars were during the Honda years.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

Image

You know that in 2012 when they had a fast car they couldn't understand why it was so fast because they didn't understand the car, that's one reason why they completely changed the car for 2013 even though the regs were still the same and that car turned out to be rubbish, have they built a good car since, we have to take their word about how good their cars were during the Honda years.


That's what I fear for them. That since 2012 or so no one has been able to understand the car. Because since that time, all their cars have been questionable at best, regardless of which engine they had. The Honda years were a distraction from a real problem imo. So to me it's a good thing Honda is gone, because now they can focus on their real problem. But they have to understand their car. Without that they will never progress.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.

That's actually want I've been saying as opposed to you can't win without works status like that's the be and end all.

this misquoting is getting a little tiresome.

What I've been saying is that Red Bull have made no secret of the fact that they prefer works status and that as soon as McLaren divorced last year the talk on everyone's lips was that Red Bull would become the next works Honda team, with TR being their development test-bed. You're trying to peddle the notion that works status is not a consideration but Horner's own statements have shown how important Red Bull feel it is. The only thing holding them back is making sure the timing is correct.

I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?

They didn't walk away from it. Renault got their own works team


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:53 am 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

Image

You know that in 2012 when they had a fast car they couldn't understand why it was so fast because they didn't understand the car, that's one reason why they completely changed the car for 2013 even though the regs were still the same and that car turned out to be rubbish, have they built a good car since, we have to take their word about how good their cars were during the Honda years.


That's what I fear for them. That since 2012 or so no one has been able to understand the car.

Paddy Lowe is no guru as we have seen with Williams, but it can’t be a coincidence that McLaren went from top team to midfield the year after he left. Whatever he was doing at McLaren, it was working for some reason.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:53 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?


Huh? Renault is Renault's works team, its not RB any more. What are you talking about? RB is, as of now, a client team like FI is with Mercedes but obviously with better status because its winning races. But the moment Renault team starts being a race contender and a championship challenger (and history says there is pretty good chance it will happen sooner than later) RB is in trouble if its still running a Renault engine.

McLaren is making it painfully clear that, reliability issues aside, the Honda engine is probably a lot better than people think (McLaren is F1's laughing stock right now). I honestly think this is the right move for RB; their future with the current engine is compromised as long as Renault is determined to keep its own team in F1 and putting money to make it a winner; Honda is the obvious choice, they should be passed the learning curve and their engines should only get better and better.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:08 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

Image

You know that in 2012 when they had a fast car they couldn't understand why it was so fast because they didn't understand the car, that's one reason why they completely changed the car for 2013 even though the regs were still the same and that car turned out to be rubbish, have they built a good car since, we have to take their word about how good their cars were during the Honda years.


That's what I fear for them. That since 2012 or so no one has been able to understand the car.

Paddy Lowe is no guru as we have seen with Williams, but it can’t be a coincidence that McLaren went from top team to midfield the year after he left. Whatever he was doing at McLaren, it was working for some reason.

Hmm, I don't know about that. McLaren produced a dud in 2013 under his tenure, don't forget


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:16 am 
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InBetween wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?


Huh? Renault is Renault's works team, its not RB any more. What are you talking about? RB is, as of now, a client team like FI is with Mercedes but obviously with better status because its winning races. But the moment Renault team starts being a race contender and a championship challenger (and history says there is pretty good chance it will happen sooner than later) RB is in trouble if its still running a Renault engine.

McLaren is making it painfully clear that, reliability issues aside, the Honda engine is probably a lot better than people think (McLaren is F1's laughing stock right now). I honestly think this is the right move for RB; their future with the current engine is compromised as long as Renault is determined to keep its own team in F1 and putting money to make it a winner; Honda is the obvious choice, they should be passed the learning curve and their engines should only get better and better.


Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.

I'd wager even with the Honda engine F1 power rankings won't change as of now the Redbull chassis is over a second quicker than the Renault works team.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:36 am 
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Rockie wrote:
InBetween wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?


Huh? Renault is Renault's works team, its not RB any more. What are you talking about? RB is, as of now, a client team like FI is with Mercedes but obviously with better status because its winning races. But the moment Renault team starts being a race contender and a championship challenger (and history says there is pretty good chance it will happen sooner than later) RB is in trouble if its still running a Renault engine.

McLaren is making it painfully clear that, reliability issues aside, the Honda engine is probably a lot better than people think (McLaren is F1's laughing stock right now). I honestly think this is the right move for RB; their future with the current engine is compromised as long as Renault is determined to keep its own team in F1 and putting money to make it a winner; Honda is the obvious choice, they should be passed the learning curve and their engines should only get better and better.


Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.

I'd wager even with the Honda engine F1 power rankings won't change as of now the Redbull chassis is over a second quicker than the Renault works team.


Renault always wins in the end as far as F1 goes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.


1. Don't you ever underestimate Renault, their track record says otherwise.
2. No one has a lifetime season pass at the top, not even RB.
3. Being a works team means having an engine manufacturer solidly behind you, technically and financially, something RB has had the luxury of enjoying for quite a few years including their glory ones with SV. That isn't the case anymore and they are probably feeling it: less financial advantages, less control over engine development, etc.

But arguing this is pointless, the simple fact that RB is jumping Renault's boat and hopping on Honda's is argument enough.


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